Somehow, I doubt they were in my part of town...

The bottom line is that our rabbonim have come out against Eli Friedman and TOV as being against the Torah.

If he was a true Ben Torah he would cease and desist and listen to Rav Perlstein, Kornfeld, Goldstein, etc.

Sometimes one has to forgo his own ego for the kavod of the Rabbonim and their Torah.

I know I'm a true Ben Torah [sic] b/c I refused to support TOV.

:)

though he was good enough to be used when votes are needed for charedi issues, like the construction in RBS gimmel.

The question is why he went along with voting according to their wishes, thinking he was gaining points with them, they used him and threw him out like the trash.

thats why I didnt vote Tov. Because I knew that when push comes to shove on most issues he would not stand strong against gimmels pressure.

yf,

Your saying "gimmel's pressure" shows us that you are in fact not a Ben Torah.

It is exactly because opinions such as yours that rabbonim came out against TOV.

Gimmel is the voice of the gedolim and their Torah and we must listen even if we may feel uncomfortable.

Chared - TOV has its own Rabbinic advisory board. And a Charedi one at that!

Chared, why is Eli Friedman obligated to listen to those rabbonim?
R Goldstein is the Rav of the Litai Yungaleit who live on Kishon-Sorek etc.
R Kornfeld is the Rav of Kehillas HaGra.
R Pearlstein is a self-declared "Mara D'Asra" who was never elected by the residents of the neightborhood; in reality he is the Rav of Chanichei HaYeshivos and maybe Maases Mordechal as well.
None of these Rabbonim עפ"ד have any authority over someone who lives in Ramat Shilo and davens at Klal Yisrael.
Eli Freidman has his own Rav, and as RBS clearly has the status of שני בתי דינים בעיר אחת no one is obligated to listen to the piskei halacha (let alone anything else) of specific rabbonim.
YF - Friedman didn't vote for RBS3 due to pressure from Gimmel. Tov is a Charedi list whose voters want there to be more housing for their own.

Eli,

These rabbonim that you list represent Torah true values and we have to listen to them regardless of their shul.

Gimmel is the party of Torah true Judasim and if they represent Gimmel locally it is incumbent on us to listen.

If Eli Friedman considers himself Charedi he should listen to them as well.

Why do he and his supporters need another party if we already have Gimmel?

Rbs is a charedi city and as such we need the voice of the gedolim not the dissenters who go against daas Torah.

eli, yes they want housing for their own, but how many of their own need to buy houses? a whole neighborhood of thousands of apartments most of whom will put tov out of business? they didnt vote for rbs gimmel because they needed 20 more apartments built for their own supporters. they voted for it because they could be seen voting against it, thwarting the charedi housing solution, as they would have gotten it over the head seriously for doing so.

to me "Chared" sounds like he is being more cynical than serious...

Rafi,

I'm sorry that you deem me cynical. I chose to move here with my family and raise them B'derech HaTorah. This includes following without question the words of our rabbonim.

It is bad enough that RBS still has women who dress imodestly, public schools that bring bad influences to our children and a park that invites the delinquints to do as they please.

Our only hope is to listen to what our rabbonim tell us and try to make this the mikdash m'at that it is supposed to be.

Those people who choose to ignore Daas Torah can move to Tel Aviv or better yet out of Eretz Yisroel.

Conforming to our higher standards isn't a compromise for them. We, however, who strive to bring our families up in kedusha, shouldn't have to lower our ideals and morals to accomodate them. They can live anywhere.

For us how many Torah true communities exist?

Eli Friedman is even more dangerous than the Modern Orthodox because people believe that he is Charedi.

That is why the rabbonim came out so strongly against him during the election.

I too follow my rabbonim. When I have a question, I ask my rabbonim and then I follow their psak. What does that have to do with somebody else following his rabbonim and not yours?

Chared, 1.you still haven't explain why al pi din a person is chayav to follow those particular Rabbonim.
2. RBS isn't, and never was a Charedi neighborhood, and you knew that when you moved here. You could have chosen Beitar, Kiryat Sefer, or even the Kiriya. This neighborhood has many different kinds of Yidden and if you can't deal with a neighborhood that has 3 Torani Mamads, maybe you're the one who should move.
What do you mean "people think he is Charedi". The people that vote for him aren't hoodwinked into thinking that he is something that he's not. He is a quite public figure who is quite willing to discuss his views of anything. There is no Halachik concept called Charedi, only a sociological one. So if 1/3 of the Black Kippa non-Hasidic population of Bet Shemesh votes for him either
1. he is Charedi by their definition or 2. they don't care anyway.
Degel may have good reason to be scared of him. But is there really a discrepancy between what people think about him and what he really is?

Chared:

"This includes following without question the words of our rabbonim"

Actually, your comment puts you directly into the Christian camp rather than Judaism. There is no such legitimate idea that we follow our gedolim blindly. Only the Pope is believed to be infallible. As true shomrei torah u'mitzvos, we are taught to study, ask, ask further and then follow. NEVER to just follow like sheep.

Soprry, someone has been feeding you the wrong line of religion.

While there may be other rabbis in RBS they don't have Daas Torah with the mesorah of gedolim.

So you may chose to follow them just be aware that they may not be the best ones to follow as they aren't connected to the gedolim like Rav Perlstein, Rav Kornfeld and Rav Goldstein are.

And yes Rbs is a charedi city. The MO are beginning to realize this and moving out.

Bezras HaShem we will one day be like Beitar,Kiryat Sefer,etc. and not have to tolerate the influences here.

The people spoke their voice in 2008 and elected a charedi mayor. The only new schools that are opening are charedi. The dominating tzedakos are charedi.

The time has come for the MO and chilonim to step aside or move out.

I am curious, Mr. Chared, why, if that is your hashkafa, did you choose to move to RBS rather than Beitar Ilit, Modiin Ilit, Bnei Braq or any of many purely charedi cities and towns? Why choose RBS which has a diverse population?

I am just curious because of what you wrote - I dont live in RBS.

eli - let us say that this is not a halachic issue, as you say.
no one is paskening halachic shaylos here. it is an issue of hanahaga- leading the masses of bnay torah to have a proper torahdik prospective within a certain mesorah.
had it been true that no one really cares about these rabbanim who only represent their shuls and are a minority of ramat beit shemesh then why would the papers aquiesce to their requuest not to advertise the program. apparently they see these rabbanim as being alot more influential than you give credit for. These Rabbanim have the right to decide what is good and not good for their community- you can disagree with them but by being in positin of leadership it is their responsibility to do what they feel is good for the community of bnay torah that want to live their life according to the ideals and hashkafos that their mesorah has led them on. they have political clout and they used it for the very reason that they received it.

shaya g.
there is quite a difference between the chareidi view point and that of the christians (as far as i know of the christian viewpoint)
chareidim do encourage to ask and UNDERSTAND what their leaders say. in most cases, those that actually want to understand the viewpoint of the rabbanim without attacking and trying to disprove them are usually privy to an explanation.
However, just as if a doctor gave his opinion and someone else who spent a little time browsing through medical textbooks also claimed to have an opinion, everyone would say that he is not a doctor and hasn't spent anywhere near the ammount of time on the topic and you should trust what the doctor has to say even though this little guy is bouncing up and down that the doctor is wrong.
so too, most of the people challenging these Rabbanim in this issue don't have the ability to pasken as well as the rabbanim in areas of hilchos shabbos, hilchios niddah, or any area of halacha. nor could they say an opiniion on most of shas in a way that these rabbanim can. why is it that only in communal matters everyone all of a sudden jumps up and says they know better.
s talmid chochom looks at the world differently than an am haaretz and the opinion of the talmid chochom is what is desired by bnay torah - not that of the am haaretz.
(besides, apparently you never got up to the passuk of לא תסור מן הדבר אשר יגידו לך ימין ושמאל")

isnt "lo sassur" referring to the sanhedrin?

anyway, nobody cares if any specific person or political party listens to their leaders, rabbinic or otherwise. The issue under discussion is expecting one person to listen to the other persons rabbis.

And nobody cares if any party or rav flexes its political muscle. they all try to do it to the best of their ability. the issue is from friedmans perspective he clearly made a mistake helping out the party that opposed him so strongly and then after they no longer need him blacklisted him again. I dont have a problem with them doing what they think is right, I have a problem with friedman trying to play their tune and then getting burned.

the politicians that asked him for their help didn't come out against him now.
the rabbanim are the ones that came out- not necessarily against him but against him influencing in any way our chinuch system. (this is not a novel concept and the particular issue is irelevant- as Reb Yaakov Kaminesky once said about giyus banos if they forced my granddaughters to hol a siddur and daven all day it would be yehareg vaal yaavor {not comparing these cases at all - just the first thing that popped into my head as i wrote the post, and using it just an example that when there is a greater issue at hand the detail of the specific issue is irelevant)
if he wants to be outside the system he should stay there and help out the perifary not get involved with the mainstream.

ingeMr Anon- of course its an issue of hanhaga, and if certain neighborhood rabbonim want to take a certain line for themselves and the communities that follow them, so be it.
My problem was with those that theink that Friedman has to "cease and desist and listen to Rav ...."
Chareg, even if you are right that the demographics are moving in a certain direction, you did move here knowing there were different kinds of Yidden here.
Moreover the issue with the park has nothing to do with the existance of this mossad or that one, and the same problems exist in every Charedi population center throughout the country. Thinking that its the fault of others is really sticking your head in the sand, as anyone who deals with the matter can tell you.

Mr. Anonymous - it was not Rav Yakov who made that comment about drafting girls. I can not be certain whom it was, but I believe it was the Chazon Ish.

Re: those Rabbonim having true "Da'as Torah", so all must follow them - the Mishna in Avos says "Asei Lecha Rav", not "Sheyihiye Lecha Rav" or "Telech Achar HaRav". The way this was explained to me was that while each individual definitely should follow his Rav, it is the individual's own choice as to whom he chooses as his Rav. Obviously, psak-shopping is wrong, but who has the right to qestion whom I choose to follow? There is no Sanhedrin that has the right to impose its view on all of the Klal, and as Eli Duker said, Ramat Beit Shemesh is a city with the Halachic status as one with at least two Batei Dinim. So long as the Rav I follow has a basis in Halacha for his positions, neither you, Chared, or anyone else has any right to challenge my choice.

another RBS resident

This is what listening to gedolim/rabbinim means in the real political world:

The mafdal says that they don't listen to rabbis, and in fact they don't.

aguda yisrael says that they listen to rabbis, but they don't.

degel hatorah tells the rabbis what to say, and then they listen to every word.

chared

has your wife burned her driver's license?

Chared, if you follow daas Torah so closely -

WHICH OF THOSE RABBIS POSSIBLY GAVE YOU PERMISSION TO GO ON THE INTERNET - AND KAL V'CHOMER RAFI'S BLOG???!!!

You can deny it all you want but Rbs is becoming a charedi city.

Why did I move here? because I was told by a very choshuv rav here that within a few years Rbs would be one of the biggest charedi towns in Israel. He told me that the rabbonim here are doing certain things to ensure that it would happen. This is why they come out against Tov, this is why they fight for a real kosher mikve, this is why they are against yeshivos with limudei chol. This is part of the attention to proper kashrus. The type of things that chip away at a Torah true society.

Rbs is a beautiful place and more affordable than some other charedi cities. So I moved here and I am waiting it out. And it seems as if the rav is correct...Rbs is well on its way to being a real charedi city.

As off the wall as Chared might sound I actually encountered either him or someone like him last evening.

I was collecting with a friend for Lema'an Achai. At one house the owner said "Lema'an Achai..isn't that the Dati Leumi organization.My friend answered that "no, Lema'an Achai is the everyone organization. They help everyone and are run by Charedim/Dati leumim, etc and have the support of rabbonim in all communities."

He answered that "well,his rav doesn't support them", wished us good night and closed the door.

We were incredulous that such an organization that has done so much for so many should be looked at in this way.

After reading Chared's posts I can see where it comes from.

Well, Chared, I personally don't thrive in an environment where we all pretend that anyone that matters marches to the exact same Jewish beat, and I hope Bet Shemesh continues to grow - but as the "little Jerusalem" it's been so far, with diversity and a large degree of allowance for its different components.

Chared-all these "Rabbonim "would tell you to get off the internet. Just for once, I agree with them.

Today (Erev Rosh Chodesh Shvat-5/1/11) I saw some of the Pashkevilim supporting Eli Friedman still up!

It seems that true concern for Torah is still being expressed in some of RBS-Alef without being ripped down.

I will avoid mentioning where I saw those Pashkevilim so as not to make it too easy for the hooligans who are MeChallel Shem Shamayim to find them and rip them down! (If they are so determined to do so, let them walk around the entire neighborhood searching; maybe that will tire them out, and then they won't have energy for their other actions that are MeChallel Shem Shamayim).

Bivrachah,
Catriel Lev