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Mar 5, 2014
fighting over summer camps shows the true conflict between the general and haredi societies
I think today's verbal sparring between MK Moshe Gafni (UTJ) and Minister of Education Rabbi Shai Piron might be a good example for trying to understand the conflict between the haredi community and the general community that has come to a head recently. They are arguing specifically about summer camps, but the arguments apply to all the major issues that have been coming to a boil recently.
A while back the Education Ministry announced a plan for funding summer day camps within the schools. The program was criticized by Haredi MKs because it was being limited to kids in public schools while kids in Haredi schools would not qualify for the funding of their camps.
This morning, Gafni criticized Piron from the Knesset podium, saying that what will happen in the summer because of the reform of the system is that kids will be punished simply because they are Haredi. For the first time ever, said Gafni, te Minister of Education of Israel is planning a program by which some kids will get a summer camp and other kids will have to sit at home. The law says that the torani education system will get funded equally as all children in Israel are funded, but this reform, if it will be approved, will create some kids who will be considered first class and others who will be considered second class.
Piron's response to Gafni is telling. Minister Piron said that there is a public school system that is funded and the government wants to strengthen the public school system so many of its programs are directed to it specifically. Piron said he would be happy for any willing haredi school to join the public school system under the stream of "mamlachti haredi" (a new stream recently formed) and any such school that does will receive equal funding like all the others.
Minister Piron continued saying that choosing to not be a part of the public school system has many benefits - your teachers aren't under the organization of teachers, you set your own time schedules, your own dates for schooling, not to teach the core curriculum studies, don't obligate us to hire only certified teachers, etc. To come along now and cry bitterly saying give us all the benefits that everyone else gets but none of the obligations and responsibilities - forgive me for not being impressed. Some people did the calculations and decided it was worth it for them.
Piron said to Gafni, if you want to have a discussion about being a full partner, I promise you that I will not harm any of the values and cultural issues you are concerned about. But you also have to accept upon yourself the values of the public education system. If you do that, the system will also be obligated to you. You as political leaders and rabbinic leaders made a decision that you want autonomy - autonomy comes with a price. If you want to be a part of the discussion, it comes with both the honey and the sting.
source: Kikar
thats the entire conflict in a nutshell. the Haredi community says our values and culture doesn't allow us to be a part of society in a complete manner, but we still deserve funding as citizens. The general community says no - the money is set by guidelines as part of public policy - be a part of the public, and share the wealth. take both the benefits and the detriments and we'll be happy to have you. You want to be on your own, you are on your own.
Soon this conflict will have to come to a head - haredi society will have to decide to either separate completely or join the Israeli society. On the other side, the general community will have to decide whether to force the issue in a head to head conflict or try to bring them in more subtly, or accept them as they are and decide not to fight about it any longer.
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haredim,
Moshe Gafni,
Rav Shai Piron
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Excellent analysis, nice job.
ReplyDeleteOK. So I, as a working chareidi whose children are not being funded, should also have to pay less taxes?
ReplyDeleteno genius. just like in America religious Jews choose to send their kids to private school and still pay the same taxes, so too here. As long as you choose to send your kids to private school (or quasi-private), you will not receive all the "benefits" of public school kids. simple as that.
DeleteI would love to hear about all these benefits the public schools have over the private ones in America :-)
DeleteBut anyway, Rafi's point wasn't about this particular argument, rather saying that if the chareidim choose to be more disconnected from society they should expect less money. In which case it seems very reasonable that they should also expect to *pay* less money as they are using up less of "society's" resources.
These things work via communities, not individuals. As a community, charedim do pay less money and are awarded less. There may be individuals that do not pay less, but they pay the price for being part of that community.
DeleteRBS resident, you are mixing up two issues. Does that mean you agree that if charedim *did* pay their way, yet still wanted to be separate, they *would* be entitled to pay less? Because I don't think Mr Piron would agree
Delete"I would love to hear about all these benefits the public schools have over the private ones in America"
DeleteYou said it yourself - they are much closer to free, versus the lion's share of a parent's salary.
"...it seems very reasonable that they should also expect to *pay* less money as they are using up less of 'society's' resources"
Not exactly. When we abstain from using a government-funded resource - it doesn't usually result in financial remuneration. If I don't go to my local kupah, either due to B"H good health or because I pay all my medical expenses out of pocket - I can't expect a refund on my Dmei Briut either.
It's fitting for adar to say that it's just opposite.
ReplyDeleteI didn't see the original quotes, but based on what you wrote, Gafni didn't say our values and culture don't allow us to be a part of society in a complete manner, Piron said your values and culture don't allow you to be a part of society in a complete manner.
That makes a huge difference.
A good, nutshell analysis Rafi. But no minority, including Haredim, can ever be completely disengaged. They'll still use water, electricity, benefit in a largely unseen way from the security forces protecting them, fire services, hospitals, travel on paved roads, etc. And to the objection/comments about taxes - well, since you still benefit from living within the borders of a developed state (as noted by the above and many other examples), you still have to pay something for it. Though I admit that personally, I've often thought it might be reasonable to deduct from taxes just the portion earmarked for public education if I don't make any use of that system.
ReplyDeleteI assume people with no kids also have to pay school taxes; it's to their benefit, anyway, that other people's kids get an education. Much better than the alternative.
DeleteTo take an old and simple analogy, it's like if I didn't have a fire in my house this year, I should be exempt from taxes that fund the fire department.
I think that one aspect needs to be corrected and that is what you have called the "general community" you are correct that right now the general community does not think hareidi ed can be called ed. however in a democracy the general community includes all of the citizens. piron missed the point and so did you rafi. gafni does not want to change pirons mind or anyone elses for that matter. he can educate his kids however he wants. what gafni said is that piron has no right to disqualify anyone from being part of the general community. and because of that hareidi ed is also considered a legitimate system by the general community because hareidim are a very large part of the general community. when the gov made a agreement years ago to call the hareid schools public schools they were doing so to stop the hareidim from making the public school system hareidi orientated which would make the public school system have to accommodate mamlachti chiloni as opposed to the way it is now.that is because the hareidim are a important and significant part of the general community and as gafni pointed out yiu cant say the hareidim are not equal because you dont like their policies if in fact the general community which includes hareidim does support their policies and does support them being a "public school" in short what gafni said is that gov should be "by the people, for the people" and piron replied that "the people" does not include hareidim
ReplyDeletethe haredi community is not removed from the general community because the community does not like its policies. they are are removed because they want to be removed and have as little as possible to do with the general community. their education is a private system - it is partially funded by the government, because thats how the system here works (mukar she'eino rishmi - its recognized but not official), but it is private.
DeleteI dont know how things work in Europe, bu tin the USA private schools are not funded by the government.
Piron offered - move the haredi system into the government education system - and everythign about it will stay haredi - and the government will fund it 100% and they will get the funding for summer camps and other programs like everyone else - but the haredi leadership refuses to do. they choose to be separate .
Shalom, you are correct that if a majority of voters agree that charedi schools or kollelim or whatever should be government funded with no strings attached - that will happen. However that is not today's political reality.
DeletePiron offered them to change their curriculum and then they can join the PS system. You forgot about the change the curriculum part. And miriam you Correct about the political reality. However gafni was pointing out that the political reality is not a Democratic one
DeleteRafi, if Piron were representing some private foundation, then saying take the honey with the sting would be fine. But he controls public funds and if it's in the public's interest to have summer camps then it should be as much in the public interest to fund that program in private schools. Saying there is a quid pro quo is just nasty politics hurting children and the overall public good.
ReplyDeleteGovernment money always comes with strings attached. It doesn't matter the country, the type of government or the culture(s) of the citizens. Gafni wants what all Charedim want -- free stuff with no obligations. That's not how it works in the world, and just because the Charedim have gotten away with it for many years does not in any way obligate anyone to continue.
DeleteThe strings attached need to be assigned in a democratic process. Not through quid pro quo political games.
DeleteI have a comment to those who think that they should pay less in taxes if they don't personally use a government service.
ReplyDeleteIt's called a tax because you have to pay it regardless. If you were paying for services rendered, it would be called a service fee. The idea that Charedim should l'chatchilah pay less in taxes totally misrepresents what a tax is.
do I get to pay less tax because I don't avail myself of the religious schools or sites or organizations that receive govt funds?
ReplyDelete