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Jul 5, 2010
Equating your own kashrus standards with facts on the ground
Last night I went to a presentation by R' Yechiel Spira of Jerusalem Kosher News, hosted in the Beis Tefilla Yonah Avraham social hall.
The presentation was on, that's right, good guess, the kashrus scene in Israel, mostly focused on Jerusalem. His main focus of the discussion was the kashrus in restaurants and stores (including the shuk), and he touched on the issues of bugs, catering halls, imported goods and more.
The main point I took from the presentation, and that i felt was the focus of his talk, was the important message that no matter what hecsher or hechsherim you choose to rely on, and everyone should decide that for himself, if necessary with the advice from his own rav or someone knowledgeable in kashrus issues, you need to make sure that the place you are going to eat or buy food from adheres to the standards you expect them to.
There should be no such thing as assuming they adhere to it, thinking they do, and the like. It is so easy to check and see if everything looks ok or looks slightly, or largely, suspicious, there is no reason it should not be done.
if one had a peanut allergy chas vshalom, he would check to the nth degree to make sure there was no trace of questionable product. With kashrus we are affecting oru neshama like the body is affected by those peanuts. if we don't check, at least a reasonable amount, to ensure that the place satisfies our own (and each person will decide his own requirements) kashrus requirements, we are damaging our neshama.
he gave countless examples of situations that on a quick glance, that most of us give when walking into a food establishment, we might think the place is certified and supervised. Yet, if we would take just a few more moments to look a bit better we would see that many times places we choose to eat in might not actually adhere to the standards we have set for ourselves.
A restaurant might have a photocopy of a kashrus certificate rather than the original. It might have a copy of the certificate that sits in the main branch. You might choose to trust the guy telling you it is kosher, but know hat you are trusting him and not relying on the certificate that does not exist. Unless a place has a valid original certificate, it is not considered under supervision. if you call up the certifying agency, whichever one it might be in any given case, and ask them, they will tell you that unless the original is there they are not certified by this agency, no matter what the photocopy says.
This is true whether you trust Rabbanut, Eida Haredis, Rav Rubin Rav Landau, Chasam Sofer, etc. They write signs stating they are under supervision of agency x, y or z, yet it is not true. If you choose to eat there, so be it. Just don't think it is under that supervision unless you see the certificate and/or speak to the mashgiach.
He spoke about more, but that, to me, was the main focus, and lesson, of the presentation.
Yasher Koach to BTYA (and to the sponsors) for hosting this enlightening and educational event that was open to the whole community.
The presentation was on, that's right, good guess, the kashrus scene in Israel, mostly focused on Jerusalem. His main focus of the discussion was the kashrus in restaurants and stores (including the shuk), and he touched on the issues of bugs, catering halls, imported goods and more.
The main point I took from the presentation, and that i felt was the focus of his talk, was the important message that no matter what hecsher or hechsherim you choose to rely on, and everyone should decide that for himself, if necessary with the advice from his own rav or someone knowledgeable in kashrus issues, you need to make sure that the place you are going to eat or buy food from adheres to the standards you expect them to.
There should be no such thing as assuming they adhere to it, thinking they do, and the like. It is so easy to check and see if everything looks ok or looks slightly, or largely, suspicious, there is no reason it should not be done.
if one had a peanut allergy chas vshalom, he would check to the nth degree to make sure there was no trace of questionable product. With kashrus we are affecting oru neshama like the body is affected by those peanuts. if we don't check, at least a reasonable amount, to ensure that the place satisfies our own (and each person will decide his own requirements) kashrus requirements, we are damaging our neshama.
he gave countless examples of situations that on a quick glance, that most of us give when walking into a food establishment, we might think the place is certified and supervised. Yet, if we would take just a few more moments to look a bit better we would see that many times places we choose to eat in might not actually adhere to the standards we have set for ourselves.
A restaurant might have a photocopy of a kashrus certificate rather than the original. It might have a copy of the certificate that sits in the main branch. You might choose to trust the guy telling you it is kosher, but know hat you are trusting him and not relying on the certificate that does not exist. Unless a place has a valid original certificate, it is not considered under supervision. if you call up the certifying agency, whichever one it might be in any given case, and ask them, they will tell you that unless the original is there they are not certified by this agency, no matter what the photocopy says.
This is true whether you trust Rabbanut, Eida Haredis, Rav Rubin Rav Landau, Chasam Sofer, etc. They write signs stating they are under supervision of agency x, y or z, yet it is not true. If you choose to eat there, so be it. Just don't think it is under that supervision unless you see the certificate and/or speak to the mashgiach.
He spoke about more, but that, to me, was the main focus, and lesson, of the presentation.
Yasher Koach to BTYA (and to the sponsors) for hosting this enlightening and educational event that was open to the whole community.
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The peanut allegory is wrong and causes a lot of problems with kashrus attitudes.
ReplyDeleteA minute amount of traces of peanut can be dangerous, with kashrus it would be batel. Kashrus allows relying on rov and chazaka etc. But, for something dangerous we wouldn't rely on that.
Kol hakavod to Rav Spira for educating the public.
ReplyDeleteAfter hearing what this man had to say I came away with a pity thought.
Are we even 1/100th as careful about other issurim as we are about kashrus?
B''H (I guess) we are becoming more and more machmir and there is no limit to how many "mehadrins" on our products. But what about ahavas Yisrael?
I don't recall seeing any Chazal about the churban and galus relating to lettuce, bugs, chalak, etc.
I do know of many mamarei chazal that refer to ahavas chinam and sinas chinam.
Perhaps that would have been more apropos for this time of the year.
When are we going to stop singing about Ahavas Yisrael and start practicing it?
RBSA,
ReplyDeleteAnd I guess you'd expect BTYA to host such an event?
Wouldn't that be ironic..the shul that boycotts tzedaka and chesed having a kinus about ahavas chinam...lol.
Yechiel Spira. You can follow his other investigative writing on "Connections in Israel", also, in general at YWN (Yeshiva World News)
ReplyDeleteAs opposed to a person who posts anti-BTYA comments at just about every opportunity?
ReplyDelete~sigh~
Question. So why does BTYA allow caterers without a teudat kashrut to operate in its catering hall? It is certainly unfair for those businesses who work (and pay)to have kashrut supervision to see those who don't bother sneaking in. There is a huge difference between having a teudat kashrut and writing "uses only badatz ingredients" on their ads.
ReplyDeleteMikeage,
ReplyDeleteThe comments will stop when the sinas chinam of BTYA stops. How can you compare silly comments on a blog to wholesale cherem from a shul?
A kehilla that claims to be open and tolerant should be the last people to ban a sterling tzedaka and chesed organization.
~sigh, sigh~
Shame on you.
I was also at the event (sat right next to Rafi) and I must say that I was impressed with Yechiel Spero (and I don’t get impressed easily – ask my wife) specifically with his dedication to the cause of Kashrus, with his knowledge of the facts on the ground, with his yashrus, and specifically with his refusal to say what hechsher organization is acceptable or not (other than the “non-authorized” or fake hechsherim).
ReplyDeleteThe main thrust of the entire presentation, and the most important thing to remember (as Rafi noted) is to always make sure that the restaurant/store has an original and valid teudah (not for the factory where he gets some of his products – which is very commonplace). Also note that photocopies or store signs are meaningless (they prove the kashrus of the place as much as the picture of the Baba Sali on the wall)!
Regarding different “levels” (standards/chumrot/kolot/hidurim etc.) of kashrus, he was very honest and said that everyone should make his own decision or ask as his Rav, etc. (in contrast to the standard answer that is usually heard “Bedtzes are good, Rabanut is bad”.
But he did make a few interesting comments (specifically at the end during the Q&A period) that are worth noting (of course these are things that caught my attention).
When I asked what the differences in criteria are between the various Bedtzes , he said that in most cases it is not easy to know, since there are no written criteria.
He also said that most of the Ashkenazi bedatzes (eidah, agudah, chatam sofer etc.) are not necessarily good for sefardim (regarding bishul akum) while most sefardi hechsherin (i.e. bet yosef) are also good for Ashkenazim – though many Ashkenazim don’t like them – and he doesn’t know why.)
Regarding the question why all the kashrus organizations in chu”l (i.e. OU, OK, chafK etc) are all acceptable by all without any “levels”, why here in Israel is there regular, mehadrin etc.? He answered emphatically that by all standards and levels – ALL the kashrus organizations in Israel are on a much higher level than ANY of the kashrus organizations in the US!!!!
(as an example – see that the OU in Israel has many chumrot that it does not follow in the US – e.g. bishul akum, chalav akum, pas akum etc.)
He also was very adamant that a caterer/store/restaurant etc. without a hechsher on the place is unacceptable no matter who the owner is (“no matter how big his kippa or how long his petyot”), which I know is an issue in some places that seem to rely on the “heimish” owners even without a hechsher.
In general, as I said, I was impressed with the presentation, and hope this pushes more and more kosher consumers to be more informed and to request that the stores and eateries all have valid hechserim and teudot.
None of the bedatzim in E.Y. have 2 levels, only SOME Rabanuyot.
ReplyDeleteThe rabbanut is generally much more transparent about their standards than bedatzim. With Rabbanut, your rav or yourself can make a more educated decision. With bedatzim, you have to rely on the name behind it or on what people tell you over the phone or on reputation.
Here is a great example. R. Spira claims that the ashkenazi bedatzim don't follow sephardic/bet yosef criteria for bishul nochri. Of course, most people ASSUME that e.g. Eida Charedis is the best and is universally accepted.
I think that there may also be issues with chalak meat in eida charedis for sepharadim.
The bottom line is that even for the rabbanim trust is needed. Every rav can't possibly research everything. They can rely on another qualified rav to paskin on a particular product.Period. Even if this rav may have paskined differently if he received the shaila.
If something happened in the factory, and the rav hamachsir said it's ok. Do you expect them to publish the details, so that every rav can pasken if it is ok for his kehilla?
On the other hand, transparency is needed to a certain extent to keep it honest, and for general evaluation of standards.
Also, every rav who is being machmir better consider the added expense for certain products, especially if he is claiming that he isn't saying that the other standard isn't kosher. VHMY.
I don't know why I'm responding to this troll, but why not.
ReplyDeleteIf you don't like R' Malinowitz or BTYA, don't daven there. I don't daven there, and no one is forcing you to either.
If you want to daven in a DL shul in RBS, do so. If you want to daven in an Anglo Chareidi shul, do so. If you want to daven in a Chareili shul, go right ahead.
Or just start your own blog and post your comments there. Have fun. See if anyone cares. You might even do well; several bloggers have done pretty well by picking a target and just attacking it repeatedly.
Mikeage,
ReplyDeleteThis "troll" never attacked you yet you seem to feel that you have to attack.
The actions of this kehilla and their rav are wrong. Period.
I am not attacking them just pointing out a very misguided approach.
You, on the other hand, chose to attack and name call.
It is not a question of wanting to daven in a particualr shul. It is the wholesale punishment of the poor of our community (including BTYA members)for no good reason.
I am sorry that you can't see the forest for the trees.
But that doesn't make you a bad person or a troll.
You may think that this subject is being hashed out too much. Then again there are people in the world who think that the shoah has been overstated as well as Gilad Schalit's cause.
Just like we can't be silent on those issues so too we can't remain silent on what has been done to a wonderful organization in our community.
Please be careful before condemning peaceful protest of wrongdoing.
To "Confused"(comment six):
ReplyDeleteWe indeed do NOT.Never did.
Rav C.Z.Malinowitz
Let it be on the record that the rav of BTYA corrected "confused" about a Teudat Kashrus he let stand the comments that BTYA allows a ban against a tzedaka and chesed organization.
ReplyDeletePriorities.
I wonder which stance will carry more zchus/chov in Shomayim.
Mehadrin Kashrus or Mehadrin bein Adom l'Chaveiro?
Rav Malinowitz - someone told me (I didnt check and dont know this firsthand), and I assume this is what "confused" is referring to, that the people who rent the hall on Fridays to sell food supposedly only have a hecsher on the store in Ashdod and not on their location in BTYA. They use a photocopy of the Ashdod original, and that is after food was transported to a different city.
ReplyDeleteAgain, I dont know this firsthand, but someone told me this last night.
If true, this fits exactly with the problems as described by R' Spira in his talk last night.
Rafi:
ReplyDelete"Someone" is completely,totally,and wholly wrong.
I personally,when the fellow came in, spoke to the Eidah Chareidis who explained they have a system in place for this fellow to check that the stuff there(ashdod) is the stuff sent here.
One Friday,the system seemd not to be working,based on an alert consumer seeing something.
I didn't panic,because something will ALWAYS happen at some point anywhere, but nevertheless it bothered me.I called the Eidah again,first thing Sunday morning,and the gave me an explanation which I did not understand.
I then asked a fellow by the name of Yechiel Spira to call the Eidah for me and ask for a detailed explanation.
He spoke to the individual in charge of RBS for the Eidah,who carefullty explained the whole sytem they have in place,with its built-in redundencies in case the system does not work in one place (as happened that Friday)They were covered in 2 other different ways!
He also urged anyone who ever has any such questions or issues to call him,and gave his cell number.
R' Yechiel was quite inmpressed at the sophistication that went into one fellow from Ashdod selling here on Fridays--of course,that is how it should be.
Best regards to someone
R' CZM
""Someone" is completely,totally,and wholly wrong."
ReplyDeleteRabbi Malinowitz, I might suggest that the three adjectives in the above sentence were unnecessary.
Rabbi Malinowitz - it is nice to see you respond to an issue posed that falls under your authority. I hope you will respond to my question which is a follow up to the same issue.
ReplyDeleteYou say that you checked out the situation and did not understand it and had Reb Spira check it out, and everything satisfies you and him that the Eida Chareidis has a special system in place for this caterer using the Beis Tefillah hall to sell food, even though he does not display a current original teuda.
Reb Spira said in his lecture that it is never acceptable to have a photocopy, and without an original, the consumer should not buy there as the place is considered unsupervised.
Reb Spira stressed time and time again that every location of a store and caterer needs its own original teuda. He stressed that when food is transported it needs its own original teuda or a mashgiach on site.
Now you, and in the name of Reb Spira, are saying that that is not always true. Caterers can have secondary locations without a teuda.
How is the average customer supposed to know that there is some confusing process happening in the background to ensure that it is ok? According to Reb Spira, in the case of the caterer in BTYA, the customer should really walk in, see no original teuda, and walk away.
Why does BTYA, and Reb Spira who was brought in to be involved in this situation, not demand of the caterer and Eida Charedis that a separate teuda be issued for the secondary location of Beis Tefillah's hall?
It might be ok because you checked it out, but how is anybody supposed to know that? There is no sign up, there is nothing there from the Eida Chareidis confirming that special measures are in place.
I am so glad to see that Rav CZM is so careful about what goes into the mouths of his congregation. As a member of BTYA I feel confident knowing that everything served there is 100% Mehadrin Kosher.
ReplyDeleteI just wish that the Rav was as careful about what comes out of the mouths of shul members.
Several months ago I was witness to a public humiliation of a member of the community (including language inappropriate for a rav in a shul) on Shabbos before mincha.
I am certain that words that were used and the public forum in which they were uttered were not Mehadrin Min Hamehadrin.
Dear Chumros bein Adom L'Chavairo,
ReplyDeleteYou write that you are a member of BTYA and it seems you daven there as well. I am glad you bring what written on this blog a number of months ago and you saw it as well. Now that we see the Rov reads this blog perhaps he can explain what happened back then. As far as I am aware there was still no apology to the person who was publically embarrassed and I like you was appalled when I heard about the language that was used. One more question if I can ask you there are so many shuls in RBS why is it that you continue to daven there? Let's hope by your bringing this up on the blog that something good will come out of this.
Kol tuv,
JN
anon #1 about the peanuts - I have been thinking about what you wrote and realize that what you raise is really a different issue.
ReplyDeletetrue, kashrus has bittul brov and other halachic details.
but that is not what we are talking about. we arent discussing milk falling into the cholent pot. We are saying is the chicken you are buying kosher. When you go to the store and buy nuts and candies were trumos taken off? do they use gelatins that you might not normally use? animal fats?
nothing to do with bittul, and the peanut allegory works.
JN,
ReplyDeleteI continue to daven there because my wife and children have friends there.
Believe me I myself am looking into other options. The Shabbos mincha incident was the proverbial "straw that broke the camel's back". Banning Lema'an Achai was bad enough. To publicly insult David Morris and use inappropriate language in a shul..enough already.
While I am physically still there I have turned to a different rav for my shailos and eitzos.
Ahavas Chinam,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your response I am hoping that we will receive a response from the Rov. I have to assume that you wife and kids were not present in shul at the time that this occurred because what type of lesson would you be teaching them by your continuing to daven there when something like this happens.
Kol tuv,
JN
Welome to Life In Israel, Rabbi Malinowitz!
ReplyDeleteWhile you are here, and finally writing under your own name, please will you take a moment to answer the following questions:
Please will you explain to us why you recently publicly insulted David Morris, by calling him to his face a "jackass and a rosha", in front of your whole kehilla?
Please explain why you hold that this behavior is becoming of a community rabbi, or anyone else, for that matter?
Can you explain why your behavior sets a good example to your community?
And why does hurling personal invective at David Moris, and placing a ban on Lema'an Achai, promote the mission statement of BTYA - which therein describes BTYA as "an open and tolerant community".
Is tolerance only reserved for discussions about hechsherim, but not when the subject is your policies on child abuse?
Your policies include breaking child protection legislation, and in particular not abiding by the mandatory reporting laws.
Are you aware that you endanger children by ignoring those laws which protect them? Are you not aware that breaking these laws is itself (rightly) a crime, which carries severe prison terms for you, and for those who follow your shita?
You are undoubtedly aware that David is directed by his own rabbonim, and his position is also backed by child protection professionals the world over.
Rabbi Malinowitz, even if you hold you are correct, in all this, then why do you so clearly scorn and insult David and even ban Lema'an Achai, because of David's legitimate dissent with you on how you deal with child abuse?
Perhaps you could take a moment to answer these questions?
Why, every time Rabbi Malinowitz opens his mouth, whether the issue be the mikva (he lied to Catriel, and these lies were reported in good faith on this blog as fact to the rest of us), child abuse (see above), or now hechsherim ("We indeed do NOT.Never did.
ReplyDeleteRav C.Z.Malinowitz" - well, actually this is a ball-faced lie, isn't it), he is duplicitous, insulting and dishonest?
And why every time Rabbi Malinowitz’s name is mentioned in this blog, for any reason whatsoever, must you start a vile, vicious attack against him?
ReplyDeleteYour public complaining about Rabbi M isn’t doing any good for L”A, for Ramat BS and definitely not for yourself (or for Rafi’s blog when you turn every topic into a forum for disgusting comments about a rav).
If you don’t like the way Rabbi M treated David Morris or Lemaan achai, then go and talk to him about it privately, or don’t.
If you don’t like the way Rabbi M dealt with the mikva situation, then go and talk to him about it privately, or don’t.
If you don’t like the way Rabbi M advises his community about kashrus standards, then go and talk to him about it privately, or don’t.
Here is not the place!
If you don’t want to daven in BTYA – Fine.
If you don’t want to listen to Rabbi M – Fine.
If you want to go to the police about child abuse – Fine.
If you want to donate to Lemaan Achai – Fine.
If you want to donate to the Kupah (and get a yeshuah) – also fine.
BUT here is not the place, and the way you write is not acceptable!
I am not a member of BTYA and I do not work for LA – but I am sick and tired of hearing about it!
"while most sefardi hechsherin (i.e. bet yosef) are also good for Ashkenazim – though many Ashkenazim don’t like them – and he doesn’t know why.)"
ReplyDeleteHasn't the issue of Ashkenazi haredim not liking or respecting Sefardim been, um, in the news recently?
"ALL the kashrus organizations in Israel are on a much higher level than ANY of the kashrus organizations in the US!!!!
(as an example – see that the OU in Israel has many chumrot that it does not follow in the US – e.g. bishul akum, chalav akum, pas akum etc.)"
Those chumrot are significant, but the kulot of "regular" kashrut organizations in Israel are more significant. Particularly the lack of hashgacha in restaurants, the willingness to put a hechsher on packages of lettuce and broccoli with no bug supervision, no requirement for glatt... Overall, there are many more deoraita-level issues in Israel than in the US.
"I don't recall seeing any Chazal about the churban and galus relating to lettuce, bugs, chalak, etc. I do know of many mamarei chazal that refer to ahavas chinam and sinas chinam."
It's entirely possible to be machmir on both!
"A restaurant might have a photocopy of a kashrus certificate rather than the original. It might have a copy of the certificate that sits in the main branch."
I don't understand how we rely on a single piece of paper that a restaurant has attached to their wall. Copy machines have existed for decades, and the internet has existed for 15 years now. Is it so hard for kashrut organizations to make a web site, or at least a publicly posted list of the places under their hashgacha?
Yehuda G,
ReplyDeleteWhat makes you think people haven't discussed all this quietly, with Rav M, with other rabbonbim in the community, and with askanim (shul board, etc)...and NOTHING has been done.
People resort to going public, when all else has failed to bring about necessary change.
That's why David Morris went public on the child abuse issue a year ago, and that's why people are writing here.
Set up a neighborhood committee or vaad rabbonim, to oversee the conduct of rabbonim, to accept and act upon complaints from the public, and then we might not need blogs and the newspapers.
Yehuda G,
ReplyDeleteWhile I can relate to your being fed up about the discussion here I also am fed up that a Rav and his kehilla could react in the way that they did.
People in RBSA have to know that there are community leaders whose methods of handling child abuse put ALL of our children in danger.
It certainly lessens Kavod rabbonim when a rav can write multiple articles about kashrus, mehadrin standards, etc and yet be quite lax by enabling molestors and punishing a tzedaka and chesed organization (and the people that they help).
commenting here has also done nothing to solve the problem..
ReplyDeleteonce you are going public because nothing else has worked, why not take out ads in meida brama, meida lakol, connections (I assume chadash would not run an ad for you) and any of the other local papers? Why not start your own blog or website dedicated to resolving the problem?
Why is hijacking Rafi's blog every time an RBS issue comes up the only way you "go public"?
That’s not the point.
ReplyDeleteWhether something has been done, can be done, will be done, or should be done – here is not the place (the title of this blog entry is “Kashrus standards” not “Kashrus standards and things you don’t like about Rabbi M”), and in any case the tone of some of the comments is not acceptable in any way for any person- definitely not for a Rav in the community, whether you like him, agree with him, ask him your shailos, or like the way he deals with communal issues or not.
What “necessary changes” you want to bring about by writing anonymous comments here?
If you do not like Rabbi M, there are 30+ other shuls in RBS with many great rabbis that you can choose from.
As I said, here is not the place and I don’t want to hear about it.
Yehuda and Dovid,
ReplyDeleteI respectfully disagree with you. There does need to be a public forum and yes it is connected to "kashrus standards".
We are not talking here of "not liking" a rav or a shul.
We are talking about an influential rav who many people follow.
When my wife attended a lecture that the rav gave about his opinions on abuse and reporting he prefaced one part by asking people to turn off their tape recorders.
Why? Because what he said was illegal, dangerous and irresponsible.
My wife to this day is in disbelief that a man whom she (formally) trusted could take such a cavavlier attitude about the safety of our children.
Yes he is a rav and yes he can make mistakes. If everyone will cower behind "kavod harav" etc. the necessary changes will not happen.
His public displays toward David Morris and Lema'an Achai as well as other of his "enemies" begs the following question:
We know that he has gone through tremendous amounts of Torah...but how much has gone through him?
His lack of sensitivity in the abuse issues and his wholesale ban on Lema'an Achai are inexcusable no matter who he is and how much he has learned.
and why is this the place for it?
ReplyDeleteDavid Yosef: and why is this the place for it?
ReplyDeleteWhere else would you suggest?
Dear Rafi,
ReplyDeleteI always enjoy reading your blog and I see that also a prominent Rov as well follows your blog. I would have thought that if one is a Rov of a Charedi Kehillah that going on the internet would be a no no so I see that either BTYA is not really a charedi shul or that the internet is ok which is what I always believed to be so of course with moderation and and proper usage.
I was bothered as well by what was reported on this blog a number of months ago and hopefully now it can be resolved and an apology issued.
Kol Yov,
YS
Anon above. The Rav just went on to check out the kashrus of the Tel Aviv water fight posting. Strictly Mehadrin apparantly.
ReplyDelete