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Jul 5, 2010
Holding out for a dira/tefilla
The recent edition of Hashavua newspaper (a haredi newspaper) wrote about an interesting, and confounding, situation that was brought to the gedolim recently.
The story goes that Rav Yitzchak Zilbershtein, the rav of Ramat Elchonon in Bnei Braq, related that he recently received a letter from a group of sem teachers (Israeli seminary which is higher education for Bais Yaakov girls) that wrote to him about their students that are taking a long time to find a shidduch because the good bochurim insist on holding out for the promise of an apartment, yet they cannot agree to it knowing that their parents, sometimes themselves avreichim, are not able to afford it. Yet they don't want to "settle" for second class bochurim. So they end up sitting around and becoming old maids (my words). The letter was asking what they could/should do.
I imagine the petitioners were hoping that the gedolim would renew their push to stop the boshurim from demanding such ridiculous demands, as the gedolim have supported publicly the many initiatives that have been suggested for lessening the burden on the parents.
Yet they were sorely disappointed.
Rav Zilbershtein tookthe letter to his father in law, Rav Elyashiv. Rav Elyashiv's response was that they should daven, and daven harder and more.
When Rav Zilbershtein told them of Rav Elyashiv's response, they cried out that we have been davening and that is all we do, yet we sit here with no shidduchim. What can be done.
Rav Zilbershtein took the letter to Rav Shteinman. Rav Shteinman too has publicly supported such initiatives to lessen the burden, yet again he did not take that track of telling the yeshivas to stop the crazy demands.
Rav Shteinmans response was t compare ti to the case in the neviim of the wife of the prophet Ovadiah who davened 265 times before her prayers were answered. Rav Shteinman said that at 264 they weren't answered, but only at 265. She needed that last extra prayer. These young women as well should continue davening, as perhaps it will be the next tefilla that gets them over the hump and gets them the shidduch.
What is the point in supporting initiatives if when push comes to shove you don't insist on the new policy? Of course they should daven, and if that is all they can do, that is what they should continue to do. But on the other hand, from the guys perspective, if this opportunity is not taken to try to push the new communal policy of not making ridiculous demands, when will it ever take hold in the community?
אם לא עכשיו אימתי?
The story goes that Rav Yitzchak Zilbershtein, the rav of Ramat Elchonon in Bnei Braq, related that he recently received a letter from a group of sem teachers (Israeli seminary which is higher education for Bais Yaakov girls) that wrote to him about their students that are taking a long time to find a shidduch because the good bochurim insist on holding out for the promise of an apartment, yet they cannot agree to it knowing that their parents, sometimes themselves avreichim, are not able to afford it. Yet they don't want to "settle" for second class bochurim. So they end up sitting around and becoming old maids (my words). The letter was asking what they could/should do.
I imagine the petitioners were hoping that the gedolim would renew their push to stop the boshurim from demanding such ridiculous demands, as the gedolim have supported publicly the many initiatives that have been suggested for lessening the burden on the parents.
Yet they were sorely disappointed.
Rav Zilbershtein tookthe letter to his father in law, Rav Elyashiv. Rav Elyashiv's response was that they should daven, and daven harder and more.
When Rav Zilbershtein told them of Rav Elyashiv's response, they cried out that we have been davening and that is all we do, yet we sit here with no shidduchim. What can be done.
Rav Zilbershtein took the letter to Rav Shteinman. Rav Shteinman too has publicly supported such initiatives to lessen the burden, yet again he did not take that track of telling the yeshivas to stop the crazy demands.
Rav Shteinmans response was t compare ti to the case in the neviim of the wife of the prophet Ovadiah who davened 265 times before her prayers were answered. Rav Shteinman said that at 264 they weren't answered, but only at 265. She needed that last extra prayer. These young women as well should continue davening, as perhaps it will be the next tefilla that gets them over the hump and gets them the shidduch.
What is the point in supporting initiatives if when push comes to shove you don't insist on the new policy? Of course they should daven, and if that is all they can do, that is what they should continue to do. But on the other hand, from the guys perspective, if this opportunity is not taken to try to push the new communal policy of not making ridiculous demands, when will it ever take hold in the community?
אם לא עכשיו אימתי?
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First, if he was bringing the questions to Rav Elyahuv or Rav Shteinman as a question, what else can they do? It is a perfectly good response to the girls. They unfortunately have no choice. The way things are right now, if they want a good guy, they need to put up a dira.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, if this was a more public question, they yes, they should have reinforced their stance that asking for the dira is too much.
I think they should daven as much as they can and that they all deserve exactly what HKB"H gives them.
ReplyDeleteShouldn't at least one of the gedolim have told the girls to give to the kupat ha'ir?
ReplyDeleteSeems like a foolproof plan. They keep davening, time goes by, eventually they get engaged (most people eventually do, with or without an apartment to offer) - so clearly their prayers are answered.
ReplyDeleteBrilliant.
If these guys' middot are so warped that they won't marry a girl without payment, why are they considered "good bochurim"?
ReplyDeleteMaybe the "second-class bochurim" who don't require an apt. as a prerequisite for marriage aren't so "second-class"?
ReplyDeleterav aviner gave a similar answer to women who haven't found a mate and wanted to become pregnant using in vitro technologies. he said that they should daven more.
ReplyDeletewhy am i not surprised that the men are telling the women "just be patient, young lady".
actually now that i think about - maybe someone should explain to these girls that they should put their egos in neutral and stop demanding only the best of the best?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete(not G)
ReplyDeleteShmot 14:16. I side with the girls.
Another option is to tell the guys that if they want an apartment so much that they are willing to overlook an otherwise good shidduch for it, they could get a job and save money and buy an apartment themselves, instead of expecting someone else's father to hand them one. Just saying.
ReplyDeleteIf these guys' middot are so warped that they won't marry a girl without payment....
ReplyDeleteyes, us "modernishe" Anglo charedis just don't get it, do we?
http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2010/06/24/avoiding-corruption-in-shidduchim/
The "party line" is to match things up financially - and in many cases even if they do, those kids will learn in poverty forever.
Us recent Anglos are in a different situation - we still believe that there will be more resources to help our children for many years. The Israeli families are already maxed out, and they're giving the maximum chance they can for their kids to live the Torah-only lifestyle.
Remember, if even going to work as a Rebbe is essentially b'dieved, then all means (filtering based on money) justify the ends (kollel ad infinitum).
somthing is missing in this story. I dont belive it.
ReplyDeleteSarah - if they did that they would no longer be qualified as the best
ReplyDeleteRafi (not G),
ReplyDeleteCould you explain the reference?
These bucharim actually will be buying their daughters' apartments in, say, 20 years from now! How will they be able to do it, if they sit and learn and don't work?
ReplyDeleteIt looks to me that the thrifty ones daven for boy babies, so they won't have to buy apts.
Just some thoughts about this crazy issue.
I don't believe this story is true, and I hope I am correct.
ReplyDeleteAs a parent of only boys, I get a lot of comments like, "you're okay - you don't need to worry", etc etc.
My response - I DO NOT BELIEVE A SHVER BUYING A SON-IN-LAW! I would prefer my boys live in a pre-fab caravan than get everything handed on a plate, then owned until 120
(not G)
ReplyDeleteYoni, the refernce says:
"וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֶל-מֹשֶׁה מַה-תִּצְעַק אֵלָי דַּבֵּר אֶל-בְּנֵי-יִשְׂרָאֵל וְיִסָּעוּ."
i.e. stop praying and waiting for a miracle to happen, get off your b***s and make it happen.
Mark that is an overly-simplistic answer. Of course we daven and Hashem gives us what we deserve, but that doesn't mean we don't try to find solutions to our problems. Nachson had to jump into the Yam Suf before Hashem split it.
ReplyDeleteThere's a Catch-22 here: Wouldn't a 1st class bochur appreciate a father in law in learning? It means the girl comes from a family of Torah and a girl who is accustomed to that type of lifestyle. The downside is the father may not be able to buy an apt. On the other hand, if the father can afford one, then he's likely not in learning, and the girl comes from a different background and may not be ready for that kind of lifestyle.
If a bochur finds n a girl who has everything he's looking for to run his household and raise his children, and he turns her down because her father can't buy them an apt, often because the girl's father is also in learning then the bochur is not machshiv the father's learning. He's letting the apt define who his bashert is more than the girl. He may be a good bochur in learning, but he's not a mensch. Are these bochurim getting this advice from their rebbes / Rosh Yeshivos?
If this is so rampant a problem, wouldn't that mean there are a bunch of 1st class bochrum who also can't find a shidduch? Why don't we ever hear of a crisis about boys who can't find shidduchim?
wanna - I dont think there is a crisis for these guys because this is the system as it has been for a long time. The best guys in yeshiva get to demand this, and a father who wants his daughter to marry only the best guy in yeshiva takes it upon himself to buy that apartment, even if it means he now has to go heavily into debt, travel the world shnorring and whatever else it entails.
ReplyDeleteThe system is changing, slowly, but the system still exists and some are not as quick to accept the change. perhaps in 20 or 30 years, those remaining boys who still hold out for the dira will end up with their own shidduch crisis. but for now the general system still overall supports them. As you see, even those supporting the change dont go tell those boys and their roshei yeshiva off, when push comes to shove. Their support is a general support of initiative, but in the meantime, the way it is is the way it is
Read between the lines and the truth is clear.
ReplyDeleteThe girls - and their parents - are idiots. There are plenty of good bochurim that these girls can marry, but because these bochurim don't demand financial commitments, the girls are not interested because they assume such bochurim to be "second-rate". AT THE SAME TIME, they are not able to marry any of the bochurim that demand money, because they don't have any!
Apparently they want a bochur who demands money, but suddenly decides to forgo this demand just for them. How romantic!
Last time I looked a ksuva the obligation was on the husband to provide not the other way around
ReplyDeleteThe Gedolim are (in)famous for answering questions exactly as asked. The question was, what should the GIRLS do, the answer is, you have nothing you can do but daven. If they want the Gedolim to push an agenda, they have to ask for that. And for a request like that to get in and get processed, you need protektzia. Good luck.
ReplyDeleteWe Are Majorly, it's true, the husband has to provide, but the concept of a dowry is very long standing. Secondly, while he has an obligation to provide, a wife is allowed to forego it if she chooses. This is the assumed agreement since she's choosing a guy that's learning full time. You can agree or disagree with the idea, but that's how it works.
ReplyDeleteThe apt is simply a very expensive dowry. The objection is this dowry is too high, most people can't do it without tremendous financial burden and marriages are being prevented because of it.
I think the Gedolim's failure to object to this situation is a slap in the face to the prior generation of men who stayed in learning full time and are now trying to marry off their daughters. "You stayed in learning, you were moser nefesh for Torah by living a simpler lifestyle than if you were working. Here's your reward: Your daughters won't get married since you don't have the means to by an apt."
I think it's ridiculous. Who ever heard of getting a house free and clear? Even most working families have to rent and save for years just to get a down payment, then make mortgage payments for the next 25 years.
And for the bochur to turn away a girl who meets his requirements because of this - well to me that goes against the concept of bashert for one thing, and for another, what does it say about this boy's willingness to be moser nefesh for learning Torah, if he makes unreasonable demands of men who were?
Like I said earlier, it's nice that we've made talmidei chachamim, where's the menchlichkeit?
The Satmar Rav, R' Yoel Teitelbaum zt"l was very much in favor of Jews growing beards, and encouraged everyone to do so. He was very close friends with R' Moshe Sherer, founder of Agudas Yisrael of America. One day, one of his chassidim asked the Rebbe why he held R' Sherer in such high regard, since he didn't have a beard. The Rebbe replied, "When he gets up to shamayim, they'll ask him, R' Yid, where's your beard? When you get up, they'll ask, R' Beard, where's your Yid?"
The founder of Agudas Yisroel of America was R' Eliezer Silver in the 1930s. R' Moshe Sherer was a teenager at the time.
ReplyDelete