Did you mention anything to the gabbai about this issue?

Doesn't seem fair to favor one kupah out of the 40 kupot on the shelf. I side with you.

jacob - I did not, though I was thinking of doing so

tnspr - thanks.

You are entitled to boycott any can for any reason you see fit.

I try to boycott the "BY CHAREIDIM/*FOR CHAREIDIM*" Kupa Shel Tzedaka. (also known as "The Ends Justify The Means Kupa")

I am like you. If I see one charity that is being promoted, I tend to stop worrying about it as I know it is being taken care of. I always focus my efforts on the ones that are not.

Hey Anonymous,
I work for the Kupa and it is definitely not only for chareidim. Anyone who needs help is helped, no one is refused based on frumkeit levels.
Did you mean something else?
Chaninah

Dear Chanina

I have kosher edus that people who arent frum are TURNED AWAY and otherwise made not to feel welcome, and that non-chareidim are second class often 'pointed' to other chairty organizations.

The kupa uses intimidaiton techniques, they plaster posters where municpaly forbidden, encourage people to remain unemployed (known as 'learning') even when they clearly should be out getting a job, and their recent dinner was full of public lashon hara against Lemaan Achai (a la Seidensohn and Perlstein), and the long list does go on.

Yes, ultimately, there are some truly needy people who do gain from the Kupa - but I'm sorry - for me the ends do not justify the means.

Anon

I give to both Lmaan Achai and to the kupa. I am more involved with Lmaan Achai. I do not know details of what happens in the Kupa. I did not go to the dinner they had and I do not know what you are referring to about lashon hara about lmaan achai. I have not heard that from anybody I know who was there (including the head of Lmaan Achai). Maybe it was nuances you picked up and others did not.

and by the way, I do not boycott that charity. That one also has a box on the shelf with the others and I put in there at the same frequency as any other box. But you are right - if you do not like the methods of the organization, do not give to them. It is your money, your mitzva and you can choose where and how to perform the mitzva.

I just happened on this blog! Kol HaKavod!

I was at the Melave Malka for Kupa and clearly heard many negative remarks about "the other organization" from both Rav Eidensohn and Rav Perlstein.

I was also upset today to find tens of little flyers enjoining me to "Wake Up" as 8 families had their electric cut off yesterday.
I called the Chevrat Chashmal to complain and was told by 2 different people that although cutoffs do happen NONE were made in the Rama this week.
Is this 100% Tzedaka or 100% Sheker?

anonymous - maybe the flyer was put out today but the cutoffs were really last week (while it was being printed)?

I am surprised the electric company told you anything anyway... why is it your business if they cut off other people.. I would have thought there would be some sort of confidentiality issue preventing them from responding. I guess not.

I do not want to say anything bad about the kupa. I give them money, though I give the other organization more. But I know what you are talking about

Dear Rafi,

Tov Alecha broacha for being dan k'kaf zchus!
The Kupa note said yesterday that it was cut off yesterday (7th day of Chanuka).
I didn't call to ask details (which they wouldn't give me of course). I called to yell at them for cutting off electricity during the winter and on Chanuka. I was told that no such cutoofs were made this (or last) week.

My point was simply that using sensationalist (false in this case) advertising is not kosher v'yosher. This is after 6 different Kupa posters and brochures being plastered in my building and shul (and all over RBS) over the last weeks.

One more thing...many of my friends have told me that they're giving now to Kupa and not Lema'an Achai because of this blitz advertising. Why should the families of Lema'an Achai lose support just because Lema'an Achai chooses to be more enviornment and neighbor friendly.

Just my 2 cents.

I hear you...I do not like the sensational advertising either, but it seems that is what they think they need to do to raise money - all the Haredi kupot do it as you can tell from opening your mailbox every day.

Unfortunately, the use of sheker is happening, and that is even worse...

Before I post what I want to say let me explain:
I was a "die hard" believer/supporter in the Kupa and its philosophy until their Melave Malka last winter. Like many people I went to show support and find out more about what they do.
I was amazed at how extravagant the evening was. Fancy food, many little "gifts" and the such. Even though it was officially "sponsored" I couldn't help but feeling that it was a total waste.
That aside I sat and listened for the next couple of hours about how the Kupa was different from the "other " organization. The differences were supposedly that the "other" organization doesn't have Daas Torah (even though I know that my Rav ,Rav Mailinowitz,is one of their supporters). He also said that Kupa is 100% Tzedaka (even though they employ several people).
In other words I witnessed Rav Eidensohn promote Kupa by saying how "bad" the other organization was.
The the "Mora D'asra" got up to speak. He spoke about how one should give his tzedaka through a gabbai who is neeman and on a high madrega. Rav Perlstein then said through a moshul about tfillin that just as if one wears non Kosher tfillin he never fulfilled the mitzva so too if someone gives tzedaka to a "treif" organization he didn't fulfill the mitzva of tzedaka either. He went on to say that there is such a treif organization in RBSA. It was clear to many about whom he was speaking.
I then decided that if this man is the Kupa posek and Mora D'asra and Rav Eidensohn is their director I no longer want anything to do with them. I would have been more impressed if they built up Kupa on its own merits.

My post: a further sheker on their part. My wife saw an email posting a while back for "an amuta looking to hire a secretary to replace one going on maternity leave". There was no hint as to what amuta this was. After checking into the position (in which she was interested) that it is for the Kupa. A paid position.
Is this 100% tzedaka? I don't mind that they employ people but please be honest and forward about it.

whoa... that is a heavy duty comment...

it is a sentiment I have been aware of regarding the kupa for a long time.... I give them money anyway because they are supporting poor people who need it and why should they be punished for the stupidities of certain people running it...

the issue of 100% going to tzedaka is also old. As soon as Lmaan Achai created a paid position (of which they have very few), they stopped advertising that 100% goes to tzedaka.
Kupa always continued to advertise 100% tzedaka despite brochures and flyers and dinners and stuff with the claim that those flyers and items are separate and have people giving money specifically for that, so when I donate 100 shekels to the kupa, none of that 100 shekels will go to flyers or secretaries, but all will go to the poor.

I consider that a bogus claim. the fact is money is going to these items and not to tzedaka, so you cannot say 100% to tzedaka.

about da'as torah, it all depend son what you call daas torah. Rav Chaim Soloveitchik is the main Rav for Lmaan Achai. if you say he does not represent daas torah, than Lmaan achai has no daas torah. I personally consider Rav Chaim Soloveitchik to have daas torah, along with the other rabbonim who support Lmaan Achai (including Rav Malinowitz of course). None of the rabbonim need my approval. I consider them all to have daas torah. Sometimes you might not agree with a rav's opinion or mehalech, but that does not take away the fact that he is a talmid chacham, a rav and a rep of daas torah...

Since nobody is reading this post any more except for me and you (because it is an old post), I am going to highlight it tomorrow as having new information. Thanks for your contribution.

and also, abotu the electricity issue on hannukah, I asked around and nobody really had any info. Some told me the kupa is allowed to lie to raise money. some said it might be an exaggeration - maybe they paid the bills right before the electricity was cut off, and some other brush offs basically saying not to question the kupa as they do holy work.

I asked my friend in a nother organization if he knows anythign about it or if he heard about it. He was a bit vague but he said he has seen such things in the past from the kupa. he questions the truth of the ad because he has contacts in the electric company, some people who contact his organization when someone's electricity is going to be cut, and his contact did not call them during hannukah about potential cuts, and he told them, when asked, that nobody was recently cut off.

we're reading...

and watching...

and forwarding...

:)

how'd you think of looking back here Mike? I did not send it to you, did the commenter?

RSS comments feed

no time to read all the comments carefully, but this caught me eye

"Some told me the kupa is allowed to lie to raise money."

i also get turned off by all the poster advs. when i am in israel. i'm sorry to say, but this makes some neighborhoods are look like hovels. this practice is becoming common where i live and i was going to post about it once. you need about a mil to buy a decent house where i live, yet no one has enough class to care that the sidewalks are giant billboards.

I was personally taken back by another organization asking for our funds. About a month ago they posted an ad in Chadash wishing a Mazel Tov to Rav Perlstein on his son's wedding. And they weren't the only ones. There were 5 different ads from schools and other organizations wishing him a Mazel Tov. Why in the world is that necessary? Why did they have to spend money on that (even if it was specifically paid for – which I certainly hope is the case in any event)? I thought that was even worse than all of the posters.

It really had an effect on me and I was reluctant to give when that organization made their big push for funds a few weeks ago.

Zevy

LOZ - there is a a lot of sensationalism is the advertising - flyers, posters, etc. - and I am sure it costs a lot of money. On the other hand, we know that we live in a world where marketing is the key to success.
hundreds of millions are spent on telling us who to vote for president. The winner will likely be the person who spends the most.
The kupot tzedaka know the only way we will give to them over the other organizations, is likely dependant on marketing. So they spend money on posters and flyers. It is an investment to gain a higher percentage of our tzedaka dollars

I rec'd ad forms for the Kupa dropped on my doorstep last night.

It is for the annual journal given at the Melave Malka.

Last year I gave an ad. This year I'm giving advice: better to forgo the melave malka and spend the money (sponsored or not) on more important objectives like CLEANING THEIR PASTED POSTERS OFF OF OUR WALLS!

I don't think that anyone here suggests that the Kupa doesn't do good. Of course it does. As does Lema'an Achai. And Yad Tomech. And all of the other wonderful organizations.

My problem is methodology and how it affects other organizations and hence the people that they support.
For instance in my shul you will not see any Lema'an Achai posters. I know its because the gabbaim and "machers" are connected to the Kupa and even when posters are put up they come down soon after.

On the other hand I have seen Kupa posters in all shuls (even where Lema'an Achai people daven). No one takes them down.

I have to think that the lack of exposure (and the suggestions being made) hurt donations to Lema'an Achai in these places.

Why can't we all just get along?

Zevy - people are fueled by kavod. it is just one of those things that keep the world turning (even though the mishna says kavod is one of the things that destroy the world). Even the greatest of rabbis often are concerned about kavod. I assume (never safe to do so, but I do anyway) that these organizations find it necessary to show kavod to the rabbinic counsel of their organizations. If they did not put in those ads, there might be repercussions for having upset the mora d'asra, or for having upset his followers. It could also be a classic case of TL'ing.

I once was in the office of the owner of a company I worked for. It was a few days before Purim. This fellow gives a lot of tzedaka. a lot. He is very well to do.
He walked into his office and found on his desk and large "shalach manos" that had been sent to him by one of the organizations he gives tzedaka to.

He muttered (this is not verbatim - it happened about I would estimate 7 years ago) why they send him these things. I do not give them money so they can send me these shalach manos. I do not need their shalach manos....
Not only did he continue muttering about it, but he was visibly upset and disturbed by it.
Unfortunately, not too many people are like him in those regards. Most people like the honor and respect they are given, so such ads are necessary, at least they think so.

I personally only give to Lemaan Achai. And i do that for two reasons. One, I am a sucker for the underdog, and two i personally know someone who benefits from L.A. as opposed to the kupa and I know people who work at L.A. as opposed to the kupa. When the kupa comes knocking, i do give a little that i have lying around, but most of my efforts go to L.A.

We have an obligation to give tzedaka, and we also have an obligation to give to our neighborhood. I am accomplishing both of those by giving to L.A. I therefore feel no need to split my costs between both.

Besides the fact that I don't trust the kupa 100%, and I trust them even less now...

anon - these dinners are marketing. i see nothing wrong with it. I did not go last year and will nto go this year. The kupa does not interest me enough to warrant spending an evening out listening to boring speeches of people patting themselves on their backs telling me I need to give them more money.
But other people do want to spend that evening out. I am sure they make much more money from the dinner, than the money it costs to put out.

I find myself in a funny position. I am here defending the kupa, when I really prefer a different organization. Though, again, I do give the kupa donations on a regular basis.

Anon- I understand what you are saying about the methods.

Earlier this year Kupa launched the "Shefa Shel Tzedaka" where Shefa Shuk gives a portion of each purchase to Kupa.

I asked them in Shefa Shuk if I could give for another organization. I was told no with no explanation. I guess it has to do with the card and registration.

I then called Lema'an Achai to see if they had such a program. Leventhal, the director, said that he had tried several times both through the local store and their mother company Blue Square. The answer he got was that Shefa Shuk is a Charedi store and Kupa is a charedi organization so there isn't room for Lema'an Achai.

I was livid. I'm "not so charedi" but I do shop at Shefa Shuk. So do many of my friends who want a choice as to where to give tzedaka.

Sometime later a new manager appeared at Shefa Shuk. I brought up my complaint with him. He said that he'd like to help but that there was "pressure" not to expand the program to other organizations.

Another case of blacklisting another organization.

"Pressure"? Give me a break.
Maybe this is why Shefa Shuk's prices went up so much this year. Thy're giving Kupa donations on our cheshbon.

I think the kupa is taking over the neighborhood because of their bully tactics (not letting lmaan achai signs in "their shuls" but putting their signs in "lmaan achai shuls" and taking down signs from others), but more so because the neighborhood is becoming more and more haredi, so they end up having more and more control..

why they need to take down other groups signs, I do not know. I think it is a matter of control and the group behind them showing people they are the dominant org...

Hi-(and speaking for myself)
I personally support both, although I am involved with the Kupa.

The 100% tzedaka thing is so that people know that none of their money is used for anything else unless they ask it to be. When money is used for bookkeeping or whatever it's not just
money being moved around. If it wasn't sponsored it won't happen (for pay).

I know one of the families whose electricity was going to be shut-off. The Kupa didn't let it be shut off first.(I thought it said 'about to be shut off' on the english side but I don't have one in front of me to check.)

((by the by my neighbor's electricity was shut off yesterday,( in the winter) because new arrangements weren't made.( He didn't switch over his name.,or something) NO warning.))

R' Perelstein's involvement AFAIK
is not more than any other local Rav.

Both do good things. When Tzedakas give out extras,(stuff in envelopes like calendars zemanim charts,books,etc) they find that they get a lot more money. Every time. Part of it is that it stands out(advertising) part of it is gratitude over what you benefited.
It's very common.( I used chametz stickers from Lemaan Achai)

While we're on the subject of advertising,and I have no problem with it, Lmaan Achai has no lack of it including huge painted letters at the top of Ayalon.

I don't support at all ripping down signs. If I saw anyone doing it I would stop them.(I'm an area head for donations which sounds more than it is) Whenever it happened, I don't think it was ordered.

There is some(or more), animosity over what some people feel is Lemaan Achai's quickness to tell people to stop learning and/or their perceived lack of sensitivity
to their lifestyle. There's more criticism made but it's on similar lines.
Then it becomes us vs. them etc.
(I think it's just being practical. If you can't support your family with learning. Get a job. Makes a lot of sense to me. But it is accepted better when it comes from what they perceive as one of their own.)

Chaninah

P.S.- I think it's great that there is more than 1 organization.It means people are less likely to slip through the cracks.

P.P.S.- I want to stress that all of the previous was my Personal opinion. I'm not usually involved in the helping side.
If you want an official response I can pass it on.

The lack of Daas Torah that was attributed to Lemaan Achai is not because they don't have Rabbinic advisors, because they do.
I was told it's because Lemaan Achai has said that if their Rav says to support a certain family and their professionals say not to.They won't,period. They said that they respect their Rabbinic advice but don't feel bound by it.
Chaninah

Chaninah,

I was told about the "sichsuch" here and decided to take a look.

As I am quite familiar with Lema'an Achai I feel that it is appropriate to respond to your postings.

1) Lema'an Achai's painting on the fence at the top of Dolev is Lema'an Achai's land granted by the City of Bet Shemesh. It is private property and hence fully legal for Lema'an Acahi to advertise on.

2) Regarding animosity toward Lema'an Achai's commenting on lifestyle: If someone comes and says that they can't pay their bills, feed their family or afford the basics there is a serious problem. Lema'an Achai (and the Kupa RBSA and any other Irgun tzedaka) are mandated through Mamon Tzibur to help alleviate poverty, not support Kollel yungeleit.
If someone wishes to support Limud HaTorah,Kol HaKavod.
Our people tell the family to discuss with their Rav about whether they should continue full time learning or seek employment.
The professionals at Lema'an Achai are Bnai Torah of the highest caliber and are most sensitive to the lifestyles of the families who turn to us. You yourself admit that if one can't support his family he should "get a job". At Lema'an Achai the social workers endeavor to find suitable and viable employment for those who are interested with complete consideration of appropriate sviva for Charedi and Dati individuals. Those who are in need are assisted at any means.

3. Regarding your daas Torah perception: I am a talmid of Yeshivas Beis Moshe (a Lakewood yeshiva), Yeshivas Ner Yisroel and a musmach of HaRav Yosef Rottenberg, Shlita. I was involved with an Irgun Chesed in Baltimore for 18 years. B''H I had the zchus of a kesher with Rav Pam, Z''L and YBL'C Rav Shmuel Kamenstsky for shailos. This was in addition to access to Rav Moshe Heinemann and Rav Yaakov Hopfer and my own Rabbeim. Daas Torah was and is the last word for myself and Lema'an Achai. Never has a worker in Lema'an Achai decided to "ignore" the words of a Posek or Rav whom we approached.We don't feel that we know better than Daas Torah.
This is a serious allegation and a shailah of Motzei Shaim Rah.

I appreciate your support of Lema'an Achai and encourage you to become even more involved. You're invited to come anytime to speak to me or anyone else involved with Lema'an Achai.

Tizku L'Mitzvos!
Avrohom Leventhal

R' Avrohom,

1- I apologize, I was not aware that you owned the property.
(What will you build there, if you don't mind my asking. Offices, a family center, now I'm curious.;) )

2- Regarding the perceived ( perception vs. reality ) attitude toward learning. I don't disagree about what you actually do. I was pointing out that your p.r. needs addressing in that area.(Maybe you need more advertising...;))
I reviewed what I originally wrote and I could have been clearer.

3- As regards 'daas torah'. What I wrote was what I heard (when I asked) from a reliable source about a theoretical question that was asked Lemaan Achai, before your time.

Their point to me wasn't that in a real case Lemaan Achai had ever known better than daas torah, but that the way LA was set up was different. That LA was more what Americans would call professional or rules based. That they had formulas for the maximum that a family could receive and that they followed the evaluations of their professionals.

Their critique was that this didn't allow for exceptional cases or for a Rav's final decision/overruling of the professionals. That it wasn't part of the process. That was why LA answered as they did. (It wasn't meant as a criticism of yiraas shamayim .)
I did not then, nor do I now see anything wrong for an organization so set up, to follow its rules.
This was told me as a part of how LA and KST RBS differ.(It wasn't an official thing)

When people said they heard speeches that criticized LA for not having daas torah I thought that this is what they were referring
to.
R' P. does not speak for me.(about a lot of things)
I apologize for any negative connotations for LA. It happens more than I'd like that what I meant to write is not what people read.
(I had thought the last comment might be misinterpreted but was too tired to figure it out. I asked Rafi to delete it if he thought so,before you posted.
Maybe he still could?)
Anyway I don't know if that accurately describes current procedure at LA and ch'v I didn't mean to criticize LA or anyone who is part of LA.

Tizku L'mitzvos,
Chaninah
p.s.- I wanted to respond asap, but I'm even more tired now, then when I started so... apologies in advance if this wasn't so clear.

before I comment on the recent comments, I just feel it is important to mention that continuation of this debate should not include slandering people or organizations (from either side) and no lashon ha'ra.

LA also holds dinners and events for its volunteers and donors (and I have seen recipients there too - hey maybe they also volunteer) - Every organization does it. The KST dinner was their first and they run it differently with ads etc like any tzedaka dinner in the US..We get TONS of mail for a dinner for a certain Yeshiva in the us that we have a kesher to - they must send us 3 or 4 invites a year - and they know we aren't coming! It is how people raise money. No problem there.

These 2 organizations have different hashkafas. There is nothing wrong with that - or with them supporting their own. In LA- when I was volunteering and meeting with families - they accepted the Charedi families that I met with and gave them the same helpas the non haredi families - though they discussed, for example, with the father of 3 in kollel who was in tremendous debt, whose wife could not work, to consider part time work at least. they came up with possible night jobs etc - He was not very open to the idea and had very strict times and occupations that he was willing to work - IIRC they offered him a tutoring job within their organization to help him out...
I know another women who came to LA to ask for help because she said she heard they gave 'more than just financial assistance" and she had some legal problems as well. (Later she asked them to please stop sending food - I told her they weren't - and it took a while to figure out that another organization had 'picked her up' - so it was wasted funds - these things happen when ther eis more than one org. which is better than the opposite)
Point is - no problem with people getting help "from their own". Why do people need to complain that an organization that does not share their hashkafas doesn't give to them? I think that the 2 orgs together cover the population here - and that is great. Why would one want more power over the other? - more responsibility to provide for more people and HAVE to solicit more funds. this whole conversation seems ridiculous.

I have no problem with each organization supporting people within their kashkafos type.
The head of Lmaan Achai once told me when I asked about the need for two organizations in our small neighborhood (at the time it was much smaller than today), a long time ago, well before the days of Rav Leventhal, that our biggest problem should be that a needy family gets from both organizations (double collection). If that is the concern, then we are in good shape. Having two organizations means less people fall through the cracks, and if by mistake someone gets from both, so be it.

The problem and concern being expressed, I think, is that while Lmaan Achai more or less accepts the Kupa and th need for the Kupa and does not really fight with it, the Kupa does not accept LA and does fight with it.

That makes no sense. Because they do or don't give to KST recipients? - and why would they want the acharyis of helping those people too?

you are concerned about their desire for achrayus and responsibility? If they did not want extra responsibilty, they would never have opened the kupa (or any organization) in the first place, or subsequently continue running it. Some people want to help, some want responsibility. If there was only one organization, they would have more responsibility, but why do you think they would nto want more?

I do not think it is an issue of getting rid of LA and therefore having to raise more money for all those people supported by LA. I think it is a matter of defining the neighborhood. By the kupa (or its supporters) removing LA signs from shuls and not allowing them into certain shuls or communities within RBS, they are allowing a public perception of kupa, i.e. Haredi, control of the neighborhood. If all people see are kupa signs, it makes the neighborhood feel more Haredi.

If LA should fold, God forbid, and cease to exist, I do not know what the kupa would do. Would they support all those people who hold hashkafos different to theirs and are not sitting and learning? I do not know.

Chaninah (and everyone else out there),

I would like to comment on the inherint dangers in expressing the incorrect perceptions about Lema'an Achai (or any other Irgun) either in a forum such as this and most certainly in a large public gathering.

The dangers posed are to the needy families, not to the Irgun itself which has no needs or feelings, it is simply an organization.

I see three (and perhaps a fourth) dangers

1. Financial: If people perceive or believe that an organization doesn't have Daas Torah it goes without saying that many people will not give. The families supported by the amuta will then suffer from a lack of funds.

2. Volunteers: Lema'an Achai and KST are both organizations that have a small professional staff but run mainly on volunteers.
If members of the community are told that one organization goes with Daas Torah and one doesn't the equation is quite simple: Bnai Torah will volunteer for the one that they think has Daas Torah. (Chaninah - you mentioned that although you support Lema'an Achai you work only with the Kupa.Would you volunteer for LA?)
I was recently approached by an individual in the community who would like to volunteer. He commented that he hadn't offered before because he was under the (false) impression that we went "Knegged Rabbonim". When he heard that we regularly ask shailos both of local and internationally known Rabbonim he came to offer his time.
With out sufficient volunteers organizations could not function to assist those in need.

And most severe:
3. The Fanmilies themselves. Some families in need of help, whether financial, emotional,educational, etc. won't approach an organization because they heard that there is no Daas Torah. This is like "shifchas damim". Who knows what damage Chas v'shalom could occur just because of a false rumor regarding Daas Torah.
The people who spread such motzei shaim rah may be liable for much more than they realize.

4.Expressing negative ideas about an organization founded by and run with high ideals of tzedaka and chessed promotes sinas chinam. We all know what sinas chinam did to Klal Yisroel. Let's try to work together for Ahavas Chinam!

Once again, everyone is encouraged to contribute and to volunteer!

Sincerely,
Avrohom Leventhal

Rav Avraham - thank you for taking of your valuable time to comment here and clarify matters.

Rafi,

And thank you for providing a forum through which people can air their comments,concerns and observations.

Avrohom

All of this talk reminds me of a joke:

Q: How do you make a small fortune in Israel?

A1: Come with a big fortune.
A2: Start a charity.

lol..
the first answer is old. The second is one I never heard... cute

How do you make a large fortune in Israel?

Open a seminary for American girls.