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Aug 5, 2010
Entrance fees discriminatory?
I remember a number of years ago Park Ranana used to charge an entrance fee. It was not expensive, but with a large family, and if you bring a bunch of people, it adds up. It was free for people who lived in the area. As a result, going there was a very nice day trip. The park is beautiful, with a small zoo, some really great activity sections, and large grassy areas. We had relatives living in the area, and we would meet them for a day trip to Park Ranana, so we would get in free. And it was great because people did not swamp the area so much because it cost money to get in.
Eventually they stopped charging (but they increased the rates for parking), because they had to as they were considered legally a certain status and someone appealed to the courts that they had no right to charge.
After that, every time we went back during a vacation period, while still nice, it was not nearly as pleasant, as the park was mobbed with people. Once it is free, everybody goes. When it costs to get in, people are more selective where they go. (same is true with my beach experience - Beit Yanai/Chofit has a great beach, but is relatively empty because it costs to get in. I went yesterday to the separate beach in Ashdod, which is free to get in, and the place was swamped, crowded, relatively unpleasant, though still fun, and even a bit dirty.)
Somebody on Kikar Shabbos wrote an article complaining about a new, expensive, entrance fee to get into Gan Saccher in jerusalem. They claim this was recently introduced because it was noticed that it is becoming more and more of a hotspot for haredim, especially during vacation time. As a way to stop that, and minimize the number of haredi visitors, this entrance fee was introduced.
Now, if he was actually talking about a real entrance fee, he would have a valid complaint. A place that had no entrance fee, ever, and was open to all, and suddenly introduces one just in time for the haredi vacation period, one could say is discrimination or taking unfair advantage of them.
However, if you read beyond the title of the article, you will see that he is really complaining about the fact that the police and supervisors are concentrating on the area and giving out parking tickets to all the people who park illegally. Each ticket is worth 500 NIS. That makes it a nice "entrance fee" to enjoy a park.
Once the complaint is about having to pay a parking ticket, you lost me. It is illegal to park in places, not because the police are trying to make it difficult for you, or to be able to make money off you and me. They make certain places illegal to park because it is dangerous to park there. Gan Saccher is situated off of major roads. If you park alongside the park, you are basically parking in places where it is dangerous - perhaps the car juts out into the main street, perhaps it forces pedestrians to walk in the road dangerously rather than on the sidewalk, or other ways it might be dangerous.
Parking tickets are not a form of discrimination. They are a way of keeping the roads safe, the people safe, and even some aesthetic beauty to the city, regulating where people can and cannot park.
I really dislike it when people do things that are illegal, and then complain when they are caught and charged for their crime. You were willing to take the risk, no problem. You got caught, pay the ticket and be quiet. You have nothing to complain about. Just because you were too lazy to park a block away and walk, the policeman shouldn't give you a ticket for your illegal parking?
It could be they are sending more policeman now, because there are more cars parking illegally. On a normal day, perhaps nobody parks illegally in the area, or even if someone does, perhaps it doesn't warrant sending out regular patrols to the area - if seen, the offender will get a ticket, if not not. Yet during vacation when perhaps there are numerous cars parked illegally, it is more worthwhile to send supervisors, along with being more dangerous as more cars are parked illegally.
Don't park illegally. And if you do and get caught, just be quiet and pay your fine.
Eventually they stopped charging (but they increased the rates for parking), because they had to as they were considered legally a certain status and someone appealed to the courts that they had no right to charge.
After that, every time we went back during a vacation period, while still nice, it was not nearly as pleasant, as the park was mobbed with people. Once it is free, everybody goes. When it costs to get in, people are more selective where they go. (same is true with my beach experience - Beit Yanai/Chofit has a great beach, but is relatively empty because it costs to get in. I went yesterday to the separate beach in Ashdod, which is free to get in, and the place was swamped, crowded, relatively unpleasant, though still fun, and even a bit dirty.)
Somebody on Kikar Shabbos wrote an article complaining about a new, expensive, entrance fee to get into Gan Saccher in jerusalem. They claim this was recently introduced because it was noticed that it is becoming more and more of a hotspot for haredim, especially during vacation time. As a way to stop that, and minimize the number of haredi visitors, this entrance fee was introduced.
Now, if he was actually talking about a real entrance fee, he would have a valid complaint. A place that had no entrance fee, ever, and was open to all, and suddenly introduces one just in time for the haredi vacation period, one could say is discrimination or taking unfair advantage of them.
However, if you read beyond the title of the article, you will see that he is really complaining about the fact that the police and supervisors are concentrating on the area and giving out parking tickets to all the people who park illegally. Each ticket is worth 500 NIS. That makes it a nice "entrance fee" to enjoy a park.
Once the complaint is about having to pay a parking ticket, you lost me. It is illegal to park in places, not because the police are trying to make it difficult for you, or to be able to make money off you and me. They make certain places illegal to park because it is dangerous to park there. Gan Saccher is situated off of major roads. If you park alongside the park, you are basically parking in places where it is dangerous - perhaps the car juts out into the main street, perhaps it forces pedestrians to walk in the road dangerously rather than on the sidewalk, or other ways it might be dangerous.
Parking tickets are not a form of discrimination. They are a way of keeping the roads safe, the people safe, and even some aesthetic beauty to the city, regulating where people can and cannot park.
I really dislike it when people do things that are illegal, and then complain when they are caught and charged for their crime. You were willing to take the risk, no problem. You got caught, pay the ticket and be quiet. You have nothing to complain about. Just because you were too lazy to park a block away and walk, the policeman shouldn't give you a ticket for your illegal parking?
It could be they are sending more policeman now, because there are more cars parking illegally. On a normal day, perhaps nobody parks illegally in the area, or even if someone does, perhaps it doesn't warrant sending out regular patrols to the area - if seen, the offender will get a ticket, if not not. Yet during vacation when perhaps there are numerous cars parked illegally, it is more worthwhile to send supervisors, along with being more dangerous as more cars are parked illegally.
Don't park illegally. And if you do and get caught, just be quiet and pay your fine.
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While you're right that people should follow the law, a government can be discriminatory with regards to how it enforces the law (assuming that enforcement is not 100% - which we know is the case when it comes to parking tickets).
ReplyDeleteWhile it would be extremely difficult to prove, if the government is in fact targeting that area because there are Haredim there (a group that may not be discriminated against on account of their religion) rather than the fact that there are more cars there now, causing traffic flow problems, etc, they would certainly be exposed to a discrimination claim.
Can't be descrimination against Haredim. Everyone knows that Haredim are makpid on Halacha, so would be careful not to park illigally as this would violate "Dina D'malchut Dina" and "Shamor Me'od Nafshecha", and probably a few other halachot.
ReplyDeleteJenny - that is a big if, and as you say would be very difficult, probably impossibel to prove.
ReplyDeleteWhat about the responsibility of the driver parking their cars illegally? What right does someone doing something illegal have to complain when he is caught and fined?
Rafi, here's a quote from a senior police detective talking about the 5th amendment in the US (the right to be silent)..."I can follow any driver for 15 minutes and find a valid legal reason to pull him over."
ReplyDeleteDriving laws are indeed so detailed that anyone can be pulled over every 15 minutes of their driving. We see that in enforcement in RBS, which is much more intense than anywhere else I travel in Israel.
Parking in many places is woefully inadequate for the level of public use. Just like setting a speed limit of 50kph on the BS back road is ridiculously slow to practically make the road unusable. (Nor do the police driving the road keep that speed.)
Or, to put it another way (US example), the US penal code is 32,000 pages. Wanna bet that anyone taken in on anything can be charged with SOMETHING (not related to the original crime) given enough investigation time?
The question is, when a law is normally not enforced or is selectively enforced, is it reasonable to complain? And I say yes, we consider that injustice.
OMG...the paranoia is getting to be too much.
ReplyDeleteNo, this is not an "anti-Haredi" policy.
If one looks closely at which segment of the population "discriminates" against the other the chilonim have a much stronger case.
The enforcement at the beach areas of Tel Aviv is 100 times as much as anything at Gan Sacher or in RBS. In the beach areas, you are GUARANTEED a ticket within 10 minutes of parking illegally. You are also guaranteed a ticket within 10 minutes of the "end of parking time" on the sign being reached. I rented an apartment in TA for a few years and the ticket-giving gal came by every morning between 8:05 and 8:15 to give tickets to all the cars on the street that didn't have a "zone 1" sticker. My roommate and I made sure to get out by 8:05 every morning since our cars had no such sticker. On the days that we overslept, even by a few minutes, we had a ticket - every single time.
ReplyDeleteAnd almost all the people who live in that area, or who use that beach, are chilonim.
Akiva maybe the increased enforcement and the low speed limits in RBS are due to something other than discrimination? Maybe they are due to too many kids getting hit by cars? Who knows!
ReplyDeleteTip: Park Herziliya and Park Kfar Saba are much better parks. You can bbq in Park Kfar Saba and in the summer they have sprinklers.
ReplyDeleteI drove past Gan Sacher a couple of weeks ago with our kids. I immediately saw that there would be nowhere to park there so we moved on to the next park by the entrance to Givat Mordechai.
ReplyDeleteIt is unfortunate that there is so little parking by Gan Sacher, but that is the reality.
Parking illegally there is HIGHLY dangerous as the roads are fast dual carriageways. If people park there, they should expect to accept the consequences.
Rafi, you surprise me. I always thought of you as totally "straight" but I can't help wondering whether you avoiding paying at park Ranaana by meeting up with locals isn't somewhat twisting the rules?
ReplyDeleteI hope it isnt twisting the rules. We didnt make the rules, and if thems the rules, I see nothing wrong with it. There is no mitzva to give them money for no reason.
ReplyDeleteWe didnt even know the about the fee the first time - we were invited by our relatives to join them in the park. We didnt know it would cost, nor when we found out that it would cost that it would be free! We were doubly surprised at the time. We saw the sign and started making calculations, then found out that we were being let in for free..
And we went other times when we had to pay because we were alone.
but I am not really sure what the problem might be: is it wrong to plan a free trip? if the rule is local residents go in for free with their guests, is it wrong for me to take advantage of that?
ReplyDeleteI mean, if I went in and flashed my cousins residents badge, and they were not with us, that would be wrong. But I see nothing wrong with planning a trip to the park with my cousin which I know will be free because of them (now it is free anyways, so it is theoretical).