Jul 21, 2011
Avreichim Tracking Immodesty With Immodest Behavior
The Modiin Newspaper, M News, is reporting about a new trend happening in the haredi city of Modiin Ilit.
Signs have gone up around town saying that the rav has established the "mishmeres kodesh" to deal with tzniyus issues in the holy town and they have already done great things, and they need the public to cooperate and help out and pay attention to everything and to report by telephone to the mishmeres any issues so they can strengthen and be strengthened and do what will bring nachas to Hashem.
To go along with that, magnets were put on doors around the area with a phone number to call for the mishmeres tzniyus, in order to report any immodest behavior and dress of the local women.
This comes after a number of incidents in which people were threatened, and even attacked and property was destroyed, because some people thought their wives were dressing immodestly.
Residents who have participated in the program have been asked to keep an eye out and any woman who is seen dressed inappropriately (I am not sure according to whose rules). The deputies then continue keeping track of these women to see if after having been warned (via their husbands) if they changed their style and are now dressing appropriately, and then they will be sent a letter of thanks from the committee. If the women do not change, the pressure is increased.
I find it amazing that they are so concerned about tzniyus, to an extreme level, yet they want avreichim to follow women around, to look at them and to evaluate them to see whether they are dressed appropriately or not. that is not even just a quick glance at a woman. That is having avreichim stare and focus on women, and concentrate on what they are wearing, how they are behaving. The whole thing seems extremely immodest to me!
Signs have gone up around town saying that the rav has established the "mishmeres kodesh" to deal with tzniyus issues in the holy town and they have already done great things, and they need the public to cooperate and help out and pay attention to everything and to report by telephone to the mishmeres any issues so they can strengthen and be strengthened and do what will bring nachas to Hashem.
This comes after a number of incidents in which people were threatened, and even attacked and property was destroyed, because some people thought their wives were dressing immodestly.
Residents who have participated in the program have been asked to keep an eye out and any woman who is seen dressed inappropriately (I am not sure according to whose rules). The deputies then continue keeping track of these women to see if after having been warned (via their husbands) if they changed their style and are now dressing appropriately, and then they will be sent a letter of thanks from the committee. If the women do not change, the pressure is increased.
I find it amazing that they are so concerned about tzniyus, to an extreme level, yet they want avreichim to follow women around, to look at them and to evaluate them to see whether they are dressed appropriately or not. that is not even just a quick glance at a woman. That is having avreichim stare and focus on women, and concentrate on what they are wearing, how they are behaving. The whole thing seems extremely immodest to me!
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People with obsessive sick minds do not always realize when their reasoning is self-contradictory.
ReplyDeleteSounds like something to make the NKVD proud.
ReplyDeleteStories like that one point out the utter moral bankruptcy of so-called Jewish "orthodoxy".
ReplyDeleteSuch obsession with how other people conduct their lives, and such repressed and unhealthy sexuality is frankly disgusting.
Yet another reason to continue living in גלות until there is a radical change in charedi behaviour.
sorry, chaim. thats just a bad excuse. there are plenty of places you can live in Irsrael where they do not have power over you, and with the right attitude you can even live in ther own areas and still not give them power over you.
ReplyDeletethere are crazy people in every country and every city and every neighborhood.
Chayim has a valid concern. The size of the Chareidi population is increasing. They are more and more moving into secular areas. And the askanim amongst them are bringing their narishkeit with them.
ReplyDeleteHow many times have people been attacked in non-Chareidi areas of Beit Shemesh in the last few years by Chareidim because of perceived breaches of purity?
This entire situation is a result of the Israeli government giving money to Chareidi sector to remain vastly unproductive with too much free time on their hands. If they had to hardscrabble for a living like the rest of society they wouldn't have time for this crap.
A police sex-crimes unit obviously has officers who investigate pornography on perps computers.
ReplyDeleteI can attest to the fact that some frum women and girls believe with a full heart that they are dressing b'tsnius. There is great confusion in this area. I attended a fashion show of supposedly tsnius attire, and found more than half the designs were too tight and revealing. The models were 'real women' from religious areas which created a very realistic setting. Part of the problem is that most material is from Asia, and we rarely see real cotton clothing. It's mostly slinky and skinny and low cut. I have been told by women that they cannot find anything else in the stores.
ReplyDeleteI DO NOT suggest going to the other extreme, with capes and evening gown type skirts. Personally, I would like to see a return of real dresses, with sleeves and higher necklines. Looser clothing is actually cooler. This is a difficult issue. It may backfire on the Mishmeres. Some women may rebel. Not wise.
Modesty patrols is what Iran and Saudia Arabia do, not Jews who learn the " ways of the Torah are the ways of pleasantness." They should stick to gently influencing thru shiurim.
Neshama, how about you tend to your own neshama and mind your own business?
ReplyDeleteRafi G, gotta disagree with you. It's not as simple as you make it out to.
ReplyDeleteJust the other day, we went to visit my brother in Har Nof. My daughter was playing with her cousin, same age, they are pretty close. I didn't "dress" my daughters up for HF. They wore their regular short sleeves, skirts and flipflops. My 8 year old niece informed my 8 year old daughter that she's not dressed "tznius" in short sleeves and flip flops. My daughter replied that, no, "kacha nohagimi etzlachem v'kacha nohagim etzleinu". My neice replied, no, my daughter is just not tznius. I think they just left it at that.
My daughter wasn't really hurt, more confused. But when these kids are just taught only one way is the right way, and this way is quite oppressive and repressive (i think it just pisses my niece off that she can't go around in short sleeves because it's so hot), than that is a problem.
It's not just a question of who has power over who. It's a generation of children brought up in seriously oppressive circumstances.
One of the consequences of these types of articles is the growing anti-religious feeling here in Modi'in and other parts of the country, fueld partly by free weekly magazines such as the one that reported this story (which makes me suspicious of the accuracy of the story).
ReplyDeleteFor example, the same magazine M-News reported 2 weeks ago that was a "mass demonstation" (I think about 10 people) protesting outside city hall against a shul that was being built in their neighbourhood (Just up the street from me).
They had almost no valid reson for the objection - however it seems clear the artcle that for the protestors Shul = Religious = Charedi = Tzniut patrols and Shabbat demonstrations.
The fact that there is no Charedi population in Modi'in, and to the best of my knowledge no plans for large numbers of Charedim to move in is not relevant. These types of articles make people terrified of Judaism and anything associated with it (which is probably why it was published by M News)
It boggles the mind how the Charedi world is attracting more followers.
ReplyDeleteAre people that dim that they need to be led around and instructed in every chumra possible?
A person can learn,follow Shulchan Aruch and Poskim and be a true eved HaShem without outdoing everyone with his new found chomros.
Where may I ask are we instructed to stop thinking for ourselves?
I was just in the Azrieli mall in Modiin and was forced to report a Hassidic man masturbating furiously in a public area as he watched the women walking around. He was taken away by security. Maybe he was part of the tznius patrol?
ReplyDeleteAnon,
ReplyDeleteHe was just showing everyone what not to do and the dangers of going to the mall.
This man is a model for all of us.
2 things:
ReplyDeleteAsk any psychologist, this obsession with with "modesty" is a very strong indicator of repressed sexual aggression.
Now that we have their number, let's have some fun with it! :)
Oh, and one more thing. You folks in the US, get over yourselves. What's happening in Israel is just a leading indicator of what you're in for...
mishmeres kodesh my ass! These people are off the wall! Think about what this program is asking the “holy avreichem” to do - please go out on the streets and check out all the woman - if any of women are hot or sexy let us know (so we can come look too!) then we will go to this woman’s husband and warn him (aka threaten him). This guy will then go home have a massive fight with his wife. Ahhh the kedusha – mi kiamcha yisroel!
ReplyDeleteBy the way does this sound like Afghanistan to anyone?!
The story says that this is being done only in one neighborhood, Heftzibah.
ReplyDeleteAnyone who knows Kiryat Sefer knows that the goal there is to have a homogeneous community of Litvishe avreichim.
I suspect that what has happened is that the powers that be wish to drive out of town certain families that have moved to this new neighborhood who pose a threat to the Kiryat Sefer culture of homogeneity.
It has nothing to do with "tznius." The "tznius" thing is just the excuse.
Don't know what it's like now, but for many years, Kiryat Sefer put up all kinds of obstacles to discourage Shas Sefaradim, ba'alei teshuvah, and working people from living there.
So, I would guess that because they did not have control of who would move into this new development, they are doing what they can to scare away those who don't fit in to to their very, very rigid culture.
This is not about a bunch of guys obssessed by tznius, but a bunch of guys (community leader?) who are obssessed with keeping everything homogeneous.
The powers-that-be came up with a great plan--send out gay men to spy on these inappropriatly dressed women. There is always a solution.
ReplyDeleteMy children (who live in Kiryat Sefer) point out that this is happening only in Avi Ezri, which is only one of several neighborhoods in the town. See the language on the magnet.
ReplyDelete