Jul 19, 2011
Yeshivas Putting Down Revolutions
There is always room for a revolution, but a revolution requires more than one or two people breaking the rules.
In two separate instances, the yeshiva world is putting it's foot down.
1. It has been reported in the media that Yeshivas Ateres Yisrael has thrown out a guy from the yeshiva (initial reports said it was several guys, while in later reports the yeshiva denied it and said it was just one guy) for taking academic courses "on the sly", in secret, while in the yeshiva. (source: Kikar, Bechadrei)
In the USA yeshivas that offer academic degrees, or the ability to study in a university while in yeshiva, are fairly common. In Israel they are rare, if they exist at all. Perhaps there should be, and perhaps the only way to get them created is a revolution. Enough people bucking the system, forcing it to change. However, one guy sneaking around doing things behind people's backs does not make a revolution. If somebody wants to sneak around and break the rules on his own, he better be prepared to bear the consequences when he gets caught. I am told, and was not surprised to hear, that in some very large yeshivas there have always been a significant number of boys who study privately for academic degrees. It is much easier to hide and get away with things in a large yeshiva than in a small/average yeshiva.
So he was thrown out of yeshiva. The place clearly was not right for him anyway, as he obviously disagreed with their policy on at least one major issue, probably the greatest issue of any yeshiva - the identity of the yeshiva itself. I don't think the yeshiva was wrong for throwing him out, and hopefully he will be able to grow from it. Hopefully he will find no need to hide anymore, as everyone around him probably already knows anyway by now, and perhaps he can even start a trend. Maybe soon there will be enough yeshiva guys who want to do this that some yeshivas will start offering such an option, or yeshivas will open up to fill that niche.
2. Rav Elyashiv was asked about a situation in which someone found out about a guy in yeshiva who has a "non-kosher cellphone" and has Internet access on the phone. The question posed was whether he can/should report the issue to the rosh yeshiva, as it is pretty definite that the rosh yeshiva will throw out the offending bochur.
According to Kikar, Rav Elyashiv's answer was that they should definitely report him to the rosh yeshiva, as he is destroying the yeshiva.
Again, this is an issue that has become a major one in the yeshiva world, and his breaking such a serious rule is a serious breach. Do I agree with the necessity for this rule? not necessarily, though yeshiva guys also should not have a need for phones with internet access. Someone who wants to break the rule, especially such a major rule, is basically on his own. Sure, many people who say they have kosher phones also have regular phones on the side, but most of them have a need for it, for business purposes or whatnot, and only got the kosher phone for social purposes. A yeshiva guy with no need for a non-kosher phone, no need for internet access in yeshiva, is not going to start a revolution, but is simply sneaking around breaking rules he doesn't like.
In two separate instances, the yeshiva world is putting it's foot down.
1. It has been reported in the media that Yeshivas Ateres Yisrael has thrown out a guy from the yeshiva (initial reports said it was several guys, while in later reports the yeshiva denied it and said it was just one guy) for taking academic courses "on the sly", in secret, while in the yeshiva. (source: Kikar, Bechadrei)
So he was thrown out of yeshiva. The place clearly was not right for him anyway, as he obviously disagreed with their policy on at least one major issue, probably the greatest issue of any yeshiva - the identity of the yeshiva itself. I don't think the yeshiva was wrong for throwing him out, and hopefully he will be able to grow from it. Hopefully he will find no need to hide anymore, as everyone around him probably already knows anyway by now, and perhaps he can even start a trend. Maybe soon there will be enough yeshiva guys who want to do this that some yeshivas will start offering such an option, or yeshivas will open up to fill that niche.
2. Rav Elyashiv was asked about a situation in which someone found out about a guy in yeshiva who has a "non-kosher cellphone" and has Internet access on the phone. The question posed was whether he can/should report the issue to the rosh yeshiva, as it is pretty definite that the rosh yeshiva will throw out the offending bochur.
According to Kikar, Rav Elyashiv's answer was that they should definitely report him to the rosh yeshiva, as he is destroying the yeshiva.
Again, this is an issue that has become a major one in the yeshiva world, and his breaking such a serious rule is a serious breach. Do I agree with the necessity for this rule? not necessarily, though yeshiva guys also should not have a need for phones with internet access. Someone who wants to break the rule, especially such a major rule, is basically on his own. Sure, many people who say they have kosher phones also have regular phones on the side, but most of them have a need for it, for business purposes or whatnot, and only got the kosher phone for social purposes. A yeshiva guy with no need for a non-kosher phone, no need for internet access in yeshiva, is not going to start a revolution, but is simply sneaking around breaking rules he doesn't like.
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The dispute on whether or not to allow academic and teaching accreditation studies in the yeshiva was the cause of the Merkaz-Har hamor schism that took place about ten years ago. In the meantime yeshivas aligned with Har hamor such as Mitzpeh Ramon have allowed students to study for teacher certificates in external institutions while remaining students of the yeshiva. This compromise was the result of the necessity of getting accreditation for teachers in Har hamor sponsored schools.
ReplyDeletei am surprised at your stance on these two issues. kol hakavod
ReplyDeletethe only way that there will be a successful system of people learning and studying for a degree is if they will be willing to cut themselves off of the mainstream yeshiva world.
let them decide that they are seperate instead of watering down the purity of the torah world
that is really a completely different issue. the yeshivas in the Dati Leumi sector have different issues to deal with, and I don't think the same situations apply to the haredi yeshivas. The haredi yeshivas are naturally against academic studies in general, regardless of the yeshiva, but especially within the yeshiva. It makes the discussion into a completely different one.
ReplyDeleteanonymous - why are you surpirsed. What did you expect my opinion would be?
ReplyDeleteRafi, David Tzohar's point may not be so different. Rav Tzvi Yehuda didn't object to people getting another education, but he adamantly held that the yeshiva should be completely untouched by any agenda outside 'Torah l'shma'. So much so, that he would not even allow an organized program for studying for the Rabbanut exams. Students had his blessings to take the exams, and to prepare for them in the beit midrash; but the yeshiva would not even host (let alone sponsor) any organized shiurim, etc. to that end. That was one of the reasons guys like me went to learn halacha at Harry Fischel.
ReplyDeleteI think that is a pretty much shared attitude with many of the hareidi yeshivot.
As for the answer from Rav Elyashiv, unfortunately I think we can't believe anything reported in his name without checking it seven different ways to ascertain that the whole thing wasn't manipulated somehow.
thanks Mordechai for the explanation. I wasnt aware of all that. i thought it was more of a individual yeshiva basis, that some were like that but it was per yeshiva
ReplyDeleteThe yeshiva gets funding from the government for each student, and inspectors sometimes come to check that the students are really there learning. So there are both ethical and self-interest reasons for the yeshiva not to want its students to actually be learning. I agree that those who want to get an academic education should be able to do so, but it seems like there are other issues involved here as well.
ReplyDeletewhile it does not say so specifically, I assumed the academic studies were being done on the students own free time, not instead of showing up to learnign seder or shiur. It doesnt say so, but the boy wasnt thrown otu because he wasnt learning, but because he was also engaged in thsi extracurricular activity. to me it sounds like it was done after hours.
ReplyDelete