too late for that. the DLs didn't say a word when sharon cut the child allowances and the hareidim went along with gush qatif.

any DL politician who complains about hareidi silence (and the opposite) is either being naive or stupid. the two groups, besides having a lot of mutal antipathy, if not down right hatred, also have different interests and beliefs. the fact that both eat kosher is irrelevant.

oh wait a second. actually the hareidim don't think that people who eat heter michira eat kosher and in fact tried to screw those who depended on the HM.

ok but still we are all dati jews with rabbis.

oh wait a second, hareidi rabbis did their best to try and pasul the conversions of a DL talmid chacham.

rafi, this wish for cooperation is a pipe dream and nothing more.

in general yes, but there is a common interest here. the SC hurts the DL as much as the haredi. The DL never organize such a massive protest though, and joining in this one and making it even bigger and more diverse would only help the DL...

you could say I am looking at it backwards - so many times the haredim did not come to help the DL, so why should the DL help the haredim now (since the actual fight itself is irrelevant to DL, it would only be to help the haredi).

I am saying different. forget about helping the haredim. maybe they dont deserve it. But joining the protest would only help the DL for the future, both in gaining an ally in the haredim by joining their protest now, and more importantly by joining a viable effort to curtail the SC power.

rafi,

i don't understand what you're saying? why should i join in a demonstration about something i don't belive in (let's say) just because there is a "common interest" in not liking other SC desicions?
if the SC makes a decision against the Arab community (for example), should the DL community join a demonstration because we also don't like some of the SC decisions?

you dont have to join every time someone doesnt like something the SC does, but this protest is at the magnitude of possibly effecting change that will also help the DL..most of the time protests are small and not worth the bother. This particular one has potential because of the size, and the determination of the community protesting.

The SC will not reverse their decision because of the protest. They cant. But perhaps from this will come a way of changing the dynamics of what the SC can mix into and define their authority better..

that would be true if the demonstration focused mainly on what issues the SC should not get involed. but in this case the main issues being pushed (so it seems to me) is predominantly anti-establishment (that chareidim don't have to folow laws of the state that they feel are against their way of life). in addition to the holocaust terminology that is thrown around (comparing the parents going to jail for a few days - by thier own choice - to aushwitz!)which i under no condition accept.

It's very simple. We're not protesting because, in this case, we agree with the Supreme Court!

1) The DL community is well-aware - to put it mildly - that the SC "is not favorable" to them either. In fact, I think most of the DL community would say that the SC discriminates against us even more than it discriminates against the Chareidim.

2) Everyone I know is horrified by the SC's ruling.

3) Yet, nevertheless, the DL community isn't protesting this issue en masse, because they also vehemently object to the Emmanuel parents' racism/discrimination/whatever you want to call it. In DL communities, no one cares if you're Ashkenazi or Sephardi, and there are many, many so-called "mixed" marriages.

as Rav Sherlo put it, demonstrating for discrimination is a desecration of God's name and we are not joining in this period. and even though it will cost us politically, it doesn't matter.

http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3906634,00.html

Leaving aside the repulsiveness of endorsing the position that a publicly funded school should refuse sephardi students - the idea that the DL marching with the Haredim in common cause vs the SC assumes that the Haredim would return the favor and do the DL a good turn at some point in the future. That will never ever happen. Showing hakarat hatov is not part of their world view.

i think that you all may be misinformed. There were sefardi students in the school and their parents are now also going to jail. it isnt a sefardi issue its a religous leval issue.

I reject you characterizing of this as "meddeling". The SC did not wake up one morning and say "who can we zing it to today". This is a case of Chareidim against Chareidim.

The court's decision, to re-integrate, is not outrageous. It's a complex issue and reasonable people can disagree on what's correct.

The only real issue here, IMHO, is whether or not the penalty for contempt of court should be a jail sentence. Again, I think that's something that reasonable people can disagree on.

Of course, when dealing with this community the word "reasonable" often does not apply.

Regardless, I see no reason for us to jump on this bandwagon. Just because the SC does things we sometimes may not agree with is no reason to protest it on an issue that is certainly not so clear cut.

by "meddling" I dont mean getting involved in this case. the case was brought before them, they decided it.
They did overdo it though. The parents were willing to start their own school to avoid the whole problem, and it would e completely private. The court said no, they have to send to this school.
The court had to mix in to that level? Gerrer chassidim dont have their own schools? Satamar dont have their own? Lubavitch dont have their own? So let Slonim have their own. They went down the path, and I think they overdid it in their zealousness to force a solution.

I don't believe that's accurate. I could be wrong. But my understanding is the parents are in the process of applying to start a new public school. It seems like such a school could be up and running by the fall. In the meantime the parents were choosing to opt out of school totally rather than send to this school. That is not a choice parents have in places that have mandatory education laws (here and in the US).

If there were a private option there's no way the SC could force this issue.

While the SC maybe shouldn't have passed a jail sentence for contempt. Once they did the parents could easily have avoided it by simply sending their kids to the school for a mere two weeks. Apparently the "Rebbe" said that it's better they go to jail. So be it. If they want to follow their Daas Torah that's fine, but we don't have to get sucked into it.

i just heard dudi what's his name, the publisher/editor of b'kehila say that in a country with so many different groups and so much tension, it is wrong to make such a draconian decision. nu b'emet dudi, where was your condemnation of rav sherman? of rav elyashiv trying to kil the heter michira?

telling others how to live their lives they can do. but someone tell them? that is the whole issue - they are fighting against the state saying that the rabbis are not the sovereigns here.

Not so clear cut - http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/138127

If anyone is interested, here's the SC decision in English.

http://elyon1.court.gov.il/files_eng/08/670/010/o24/08010670.o24.pdf

I'm not a lawyer, but it seems reasonable. And reasonable should have been able to deal with it.

What I find fascinating, and it should be illustritive to people who decry how "secular" the court is, is this final comment in an amendment to the decision by Justice Melcer.

In closing, I think it is superfluous to mention that the school that is the focus of the petition is called ‗Beit Yaakov.‘ This name is derived from the well-known verse in the Book of Exodus, 19, 3 [45], which speaks of the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai. The verse says: ‗... thus you shall say to the house of Jacob (Heb. Beit Yaakov), and speak to the children of Israel.‘ Rabbi Shlomo Yitzhaki (Rashi) explains: ‗Thus you shall say — in this language and in this order: to the house of Jacob (Beit Yaakov) — these are the women... and tell the children of Israel — the men.‘ From this we can see two things:
(a) The Torah was given to women first (see: A. Weinroth, Feminism and Judaism (2001), at p. 58).
(b) In this verse, a distinction was only made between Beit Yaakov and the children of Israel, and it follows that any other or additional distinction, including in a school that bears the name Beit Yaakov, involves prohibited and improper discrimination.
We should remember and remind ourselves that the approach is that all the children of Jacob are equal. The Midrash states:
‗Rabbi Yehoshua of Sachnin said in the name of Rabbi Levy: the names of the tribes are not given everywhere in the same order, but sometimes one order is used, and at other times another order is used, so that people will not say that because they are superior the names of the sons of the mistresses (i.e., Leah and Rachel) were given first, and the names of the sons of the maid-servants (i.e., Zilpah and Bilhah) were given afterwards, thereby teaching you that they are all equal.‘
(Midrash Sechel Tov (Buber edition), Exodus, Introduction [46]).

in this clip you can see
the teymani guy is being sent to jail. He is sefardi. This whole this is BS!

jameel (muqata.blogspot.com) wrote something about it, yesterday I think, saying he knew some of the families, and there are 2 or 3 families that are sephardim that are going to jail as part of this...

Mr. Lipkin,

You usually make sense but it seems that here your anti-haredi bias has clouded your sense of reason.

The court has set a dangerous precedent (not the first time of course, in general - but for the Haredim for the first time since the last mass protest - which agav snuffed out Aharon Barack's, shem resoim yerokev, ruling.).

The court is forcing people to educate their children in a way contrary to their beliefs. THis is unconscinable to anyone who understands the first thing about democracy. THe parents tried many other options besides "home" all of which the supreme crap rejected.

BTW, can all of the faux geniuses pretending to be progressives against 'discrimination' explain to me how a school with 30% sephardim can be viewed as discriminatory?

Can someome please give the emperor some underwear, l'fachot? This is really gross....

Oh, and the comment about no racism in DL. Is horse manure.

It simply depends. I have some uppity snot ashkenazy DL relatives in the Krayot (shmuel to be exact)(haifa suburbs to land of Israel buffs) who were aghast when a very close relative of mine married out of the fatih.. i mean married some one who last name was Buchbut....


uppity is as uppity goes. Haredi, DL, hiloni.

Of course I am sure my progressive relatives are currently condmening the racist haredim.....

such a sham.

GET THE EMPEROR SOME CLOTHES ALREADY, will ya!!!

some quotes:

"Rotter news reports that prominent dati leumi posek, HaGaon HaRav Zalman Baruch Melamed has informed his talmidim to take part in the atzeres as well."

"HaRav Michel Braun, the rosh yeshiva of the Shilo Hesder Yeshiva, told Kol Chai Radio that he stands firmly behind the Emanuel parents and their struggle."

"HaGaon HaRav Dov Lior Shlita joins the list of Gedolei Torah calling on followers to protest against the Supreme Court with the chareidim."

THis is unconscinable to anyone who understands the first thing about democracy.

nonsense. in the US religious schools which don't receive a penny in government aid still adhere to government requirements regarding the educational content.

A mechitza down the middle of the yard is just beyond despicable. I mean, really. How hurtful, how painful, how humiliating.

This is torah? This is Judaism???

The Chareidim have been coddled for way too long. Look at the audacity of even suggesting such a thing, let alone actually putting it up.

This is a culture that has been allowed to flourish on the backs of the average Israeli taxpayer for YEARS, and I say ENOUGH! In fact, I demand that Chinuch Atzmai return all my hard earned pennies to me (collected during all my elementary school years in Brooklyn). All those years of stuffing pennies into their pushkas, for what? So they could create generation after generation of illiterates and cultural (if not racial) bigots who think they are better than ME, the one who gave them the money????

I feel totally bamboozled!!!!

GROSS!