Again, I say the Eida must be boycotted. Talk to your local merchants, ask them to provide Mehadrin alternatives to Eida products. Of course, not all products need to be Mehadrin either.

If you don't hold Mehadrin, then by all means do all you can to avoid that nefarious symbol.

Personally, I agree with Menachem. A shame, but that's what is needed. Whether or not it has much effect, we need to make a statement l'maan ha-emet v'hatzedek. The Eida Haredis is promoted and/or supporting a culture of violence within Am Yisrael. This has to be protested and stopped. We can and should all bear a little inconvenience in order to make this statement.

police, fire.... why always so long?

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{sorry about that. here is the post again:}
why are people so indifferent to the digging up of kevarim?
where are all the people that defended the digging up of barzilay cemetary by saying that it wasn't jewish bones, it was pikuach nefesh etc.
If they really believed that graves shouldn't be dug up,
but barzilay cemetary was an exception, then they should be on the bandwagon in yaffa, where no one denies that they are Jewish cemetaries, and no one claims that there is pikuach nefesh involved.
It just shows what was really going on in the Barzilay affair.
People that have debates usually have different starting points and then their opinions are shaped from that angle.
While some of the claims in regards to the Barzilay Cemetary might have been true, the starting point of those that argued to remove the bones, was an indifference in general to the kevarim issue. (While they may not approve the digging up per ce, they are not so disturbed by it, as most people are not disturbed by the private chillul Shabbos of some private guy in the middle of tel aviv despite nor approving of it)
Ever since the digging up of the graves in TEveryah next to the Rambam's kever, (I don't remember off hand how many years ago it was, but it was in the lifetimes of the Brisker Rav and Reb Amram BLoy)the chareidi community, and particularly the Yerushalmi community has been very active in preventing the digging up of graves.
REb David Shmidel, who was in fact one of the first people to be sent up to the rambam's kever for the protests, has made this his life's work. (he does manage to sit and learn and give shiurim in a kollel up north fromm mondays till thursday unless specific issues are going on and he has to stay locally)
the yerushalmim, therefore, have a constant awareness for the desecrartion of kevarim and they take it very seriously. it REALLY bothers them (as it should all of us)
"when something hurts, you scream"
i am not condoning damging electra's car, but at least try to understand where these guys are coming from. to you guys, there is a much further jump from what you consider normal, to thr turning over of cars. for these guys the jump is much smaller and should be looked at from that perspective.
if you knew that it was your great grandfather's bones that electra was responsible for rolling around the lots of yaffah, perhaps the jump to rolling around cars in beit shemesh would be smaller, even if you actually wouldn't do it

i am not condoning damging electra's car, but at least try to understand where these guys are coming from. to you guys, there is a much further jump from what you consider normal, to thr turning over of cars. for these guys the jump is much smaller and should be looked at from that perspective.

This is the problem. Yes, sure I care about graves and their sanctity. But, I care more about the sanctity of the living. Their behavior is the opposite of Kedusha. That "small jump" is the crux of so many of the problems we are facing here. And I have news for you once you've minimized the jump to assault and vandalism,the jump to things much worse also narrows.

if you knew that it was your great grandfather's bones that electra was responsible for rolling around the lots of yaffah, perhaps the jump to rolling around cars in beit shemesh would be smaller, even if you actually wouldn't do it

Not even close. I might write a letter, start a petition, etc. but, unlike these cretins, I would know that the sanctification of my grandfather's neshama is much more dependent on my behavior than what happens to his bones.

I wish I could believe that this, even the non-violent aspect of it, was l'shma. But see no reason to believe it's anything more than a political pissing match.

menachem said " But, I care more about the sanctity of the living."
in this case your complaint is irelevant as there was asumingly no on in the car.
but in general, you missed my point. My point was to understand where they are coming from, not legitamize the actual inceident.

also what is worse than assault and vandalism? after 60 years of fighting the government, they haven't gotten past assault and vandalism.
they haven't killed anybody, they have only been killed.

my post wast intended for people like who call these people "cretins" I was trying to show that they are motivated by a real sence of fighting for what is right. they may be erring, but to call them cretins is to miss the boat on who they are.

if you knew that your letter would be ignored and so would your petition,(based on sixty years of precedent) then what would you do?
just be quiet?
suppose the guy himself who did it happened to park his car in front of your house? would you not have an urge to destroy it? (even if oyu would ultimately do what is right and not destroy it - nonetheless would the urge not be there)


you also said "I wish I could believe that this, even the non-violent aspect of it, was l'shma. But see no reason to believe it's anything more than a political pissing match."
your language seems to indicate that you are indeed very far from being able to relate to things being done lishma.
however, in the case of kevarim, apparently you are not knowledgable of the chareidi history of the state of israel. there is plenty of basis to assume that these fights are being done lshaym shamayim.
i find it hard to believe that all the individual people that took the time to travel down to yaffah, and were willing to sit jail and get beaten up physically by the cops, were willing to do so to satisfy somebody elses urge for political advancement. the average joe doesn't really care about politics and deffinately aren't willing to get beaten up for it.

I'm sorry Mr. A, your defense of them makes you nearly as bad.

What's worse than assault and vandalism is murder. They are not far from it. The level of group violence we've seen here in BS makes it a real possibility.

I respect people who believe in their convictions and are willing to fight for them. But these people are not fighting for their convictions so much as they are fighting a specter of the past. When everything is a battle and you behavior not only hurts those around you but undermines your cause then you must re-evaluate and see that you are doing something wrong.

I know the history of Israel very well, I don't need a lecture from you. Using the behavior of some of the early governments is absurd. Sure bad things were done. All governments do bad things at one time or another, even democracies, they're run by people and people are human. Their problem is that they can't get over it. They want to continue living is if they are living in some European shtetel that they've romanticized but never really existed. They depend so much on their need be hated by the "other" and if there is no "other" they have to invent one.

All these "people" are succeeding in is pushing others further away from their cause. The vast majority of Israeli Jews have a sense of tradition and would normally care about issues such as graves. But when extremists are, well, so extreme they create an atmosphere where people care more about reaction to their behavior than the underlying issue.

You may find it hard to believe that people would spend time protesting if it weren't l'shma. I don't. You implied it yourself, their real agenda is getting back at the big bad Zionist entity. For in reality, if they really cared about these graves there are clever peaceful ways they could deal with the issue. Of course that might mean compromise, something which, by definition, is not in the extremist dictionary.

sorry I missed all the discussion..

anonymous about why it takes so long - maybe they are also hesitant to go into the neighborhood and do what they have to...

Mr. Anonymous,

They haven't killed anyone? are you serious?????? oh well, I guess I should be happy that they HAVEN'T KILLED ANYONE (yet)! well, they did beat up some dati leumi teenagers, but I guess they just didn't get around to actually killing them. whew! what a relief! glad to know they have standards...

hello? is anybody home?

btw, replace RBS B with East LA, or the South Bronx or any other American Ghetto and replace the word Chareidim/Kanoim with American Ghetto Blacks (or for another example, how about the recent riots in Sweden by some really really angry Muslim youth)and see if you still agree with the drivel you just posted.

MrRbs,
Read the comment thread again. I didn't say that. I was only responding to Menachem's comment about assault and vandalism leading to other things. I didn't condone the assault and violence.
I was trying to give perspective to their point of view. I haven't been to yaffa nor have I taken part in any demonstration in Bet. Although, I am familiar enough with their community to appreciate where they are coming from.
My main point was that their actions aren't coming from as far out in left field as the average American thinks. There is a tremendously difference in outlook that is behind their actions.
Even though in many instances they err in their judgement, that erring is crossing over a smaller line than if someone else would do such an action.
Understanding the other side is an important step to tolerance - something that goes both ways. If we demand tolerance of them, which is a legitimate demand, we can also try to at least understand where they are coming from.

dIf we demand tolerance of them, which is a legitimate demand, we can also try to at least understand where they are coming from.

We're not demanding tolerance, though that would be nice. We're demanding basic civil behavior. We're demanding that the police treat these criminals as they do all criminals. We're demanding a very b'dieved level of halachic observance when it comes to ben adom l'chaveiro.

Your attempt at "giving perspective to their point of view" so we can see that their actions aren't so out of "left field" smacks of what the late Senator Daniel Patrick Moynahan termed "defining deviancy down". Through a bigotry of low expectations you make allowances for deviant behavior which only serves to lower the bar.

I'll tolerate any point of view. I won't tolerate this behavior and if I do then I'm just as bad as they are.

I disagree and have zero tolerance for them and here is the heart of the problem: This is Western Civilization vs. no Civilization. This is respect for the rule of law vs. no law. This is mature disagreement vs. immature rioting like a bunch of whiny babies. This is like one big temper tantrum.

I don't tolerate anyone that won't tolerate me. I guess I am a bigot.

Like I said before they are a bunch of whining babies. They don't teach their children to have any respect for anybody that doesn't look exactly like them and demand that everyone BELOW their standards bow to their every demand. This is no different than any other minority group that has been coddled for WAY TOO LONG! Where is the personal responsibility? Where is the work ethic (maybe if they actually took care of their kids and worked hard, they would have no time for this childishness)? Where is the mature adult behavior that we expect? Just like I described in my previous post, be it the Muslim Youth in Sweden or the angry Latinos or Blacks in the American Ghettos. You treat them as if they are deserving of a seat at the table, yet they have not shown that they are mature enough to join you at the grownup table.

Everyone has urges, Mr. A. But a Jew must control his urges. There is a big difference between wanting to do something and actually doing it. Furthermore, it's pretty naive to think all their protests are l'sheim shamayim. Sometimes they're out for control, sometimes it's because they feel they've been treated unfairly and sometimes they're just bored.

If Rafi wrote correctly, the Eida said not to buy Electra products. It did not say destroy their property. So don't kid us that they are acting in defense of the graves, or acting l'sheim shamayim. Not even the Eida said they should do this.

Menachem, et al, you should take note of this last point as well.
The Eida said not to buy Electra products. It did not say destroy their property. Just as you are calling for a ban on Eida products, I'm sure you aren't suggesting we destroy their property are you? So while I think your anger about the destruction of property is correct, it is misdirected. Blame the hooligans for taking it too far.

Wanna, how are you comparing a call for boycott (not a ban) to destroying property?

Regardless. The Eida is at the heart of many of the problems we face here it Beit Shemesh and in the country in general.

They often call for "protests" knowing full well that there will almost always be violence associated with these protests.

But all that aside for a moment. Do I,as a religious Zionist, really want to help financially support an organization that is so firmly in opposition to my core beliefs? Financially supporting the Eida by purchasing products with their supervision finances an organization who passively and actively works against the existence of the state of Israel.

Thank you, but I'll avoid that whenever I can.

(I was using ban and boycott interchangeably, by the way.)

I'm not comparing them. Exactly my point. The Eida said to ban Electra, they did not say destroy their property. Just like you want to ban Eida, and you don't mean to destroy their property.

If you don't want to use Eida products, fine with me. All I was saying is this incident specifically is not their fault.

Mr A.

Throughout Tanach and Gemara we are made to understand how much the real religion of Judaism, not your made up one, really doesn't like Jew on jew violence. yet you want us to "understand" the frustration of the Eida being upset about the graves being dug up. As if logically this would lead anyone who CAN understand their frustration would agree that it's a normal reaction to become violent and cause HEZEK - an issur d'orayisa! HMMM........

Shaya good point. But I think Mr. A sees the Eida like the Biryonim of old - taking matters into their own hands due to a general neglect throughout society.

He is correct that the apathy toward graves - predominantly by a secular leadership - is inappropriate. What alternate model would you suggest they adopt to pursue more halachic handling of extant Jewish graves?

(And Menachem I'll concur that while your ideas generally represent my own, your language here certainly does not.)

If you don't want to use Eida products, fine with me. All I was saying is this incident specifically is not their fault.

Ah, sorry for the misunderstanding. But I still don't agree. The "extremists" have a very strong chazaka of behaving this way in response to actions, bans, protests, whatever, by the Eida. I would say that's it pretty much a psik reisha. Therefore the Eida has full culpability for instigation this behavior.

And Menachem I'll concur that while your ideas generally represent my own, your language here certainly does not.)

I know I get a little rough around the edges sometimes. But this topic has me so frustrated. Sometimes I feel like I could, I don't know, overturn a car! :)

One of the main reasons I post with my real name is to try to keep myself in check. Can you imagine how bad I'd be if were anon?

I surmise that the "Mr. Anon" here is the same one in other posts

You so aptly said "when something hurts, you scream"

Well, I'm screaming at your defense of intolerable behavior of kannoim, your defense of the "cherem" against Lema'an Achai and similar views.

Where was your voice when the kids were beaten up in RBSB? Where is your voice when people are swayed from giving to Lema'an Achai because of a rav's "issues" with another person?

Do you really think that your defenses will hold up before the Kisay HaKavod (at 120)?

Due to the actions of those who you so solidly defend many children of HaShem are crying and suffering.

Mr. Anon, the fact that one is Charedi or even a Rav does not justify carte blanche for their behavior.

I didn't defend the violence nor bans on Lmaan Achay. I was just trying to show that there is another way of looking at things. Look again at what I wrote.
"When people are swayed from giving to Lema'an Achai because of a rav's "issues" with another person," my voice is being used to defend kavod hatorah. Sorry, even though Lmaan achay may be a worthwhile organization, I prefer to defend kavod hatorah, rather than defend organizations and insult rabbanim. The klal is better off in the long run if the Rabbanim are respected (and the aniyim are also because the rabbanim help to urge the tzibbuir to give money to aniyim. )
If we lose respect for the rabbanim, then our spiritual levels will fall very quickly. I don't believe that rabbanim are infallible or never make mistakes. However, take a look at sefer hachinuch on the mitzva of kchol asher yorucha. He says that the idea of afilu al yemin shehoo smol is that even if they are wrong, we are still better off listening to them.
I understand that many people correctly cannot tolerate violence, however that is not reason to loose focus on the issue itself. What I started out saying in this thread is that people should be more concerned than they are about the kavarim being dug up, regardless of how you feel about the violence.

Shira,

These are NOT Jewish graves. Jews at the time did not bury their dead in the ground, but rather in caves. This is an undisputed fact.

Excellent point, Mrs RBS,

infact, go further - it's chukas hagoy to bury in the ground. Ergo, we are being mekayim a mitzvah by digging them up - even if these are jewish graves!

the mistake you are making is interjecting facts into an ignorant and emotional power and control debate. This isn't about "mitziyus", but about who gets listened to!

Shaya G,


I would give you a big L O L, but it's actually too depressing to realize how brainwashed so many of our community are....

I'm not sure who the brainwashed one is this case. Shaya and mrsrbs you are are making a grave error. You are confusing barzilay cemetery in ashkelon and the cemetery in yaffo.
The issue this week is yaffo, ashkelon is over. No one is disputing this fact. As far as being buried in caves and not under ground, people didn't build houses underground either they lived above grround. Yet for some rreason we find houses as we dig up the ground in differrent places. So your comment is very superficial. Of course these are burial caves that were found as they started doing construction fifteen years ago.
Only when the israel antiquities authority saw the apathy of the general public, in the recent ashkelon issue, did they decide to push through with this project.
And you guys also proved my original point. The bottom line is that you are apathetic towards the digging up of kevarim. Therefore you will find a million and one excuses to justify digging up graves and vilify protesting it(I am referring to non-violent protests - such as a cherem on electra for example).
I am therefore trying to point out that we must seperate the issues from the modes of protest. Even if we disagree with the methods of protest, we must realize that the issues are valid and should be important to us

btw it's spelled sepArate.

When the Chareidim start acting like mature adults perhaps I will listen to their grievances.

In the meantime, ever heard of the boy who cried wolf?

That is exactly my point. Graves should not be grievences of any particular sect. Every single Jew should be concerned. This has nothing to do with charaidim per ce.
Your apathy towards kevarim allows you to hate the yerushalmim for the violence.
I condemn the same violence, but since digging up kevarim concerns me and tremendously bothers me I don't hate them. I look at them as a friend who is making a terrible terrible mistake.
The difference is where you fall on the issue itself. And since you have proven my point and spelled it out clearly, I guess there remains nothing else to argue about.

and you Sir, are missing MY point.

I live in RBS A and have to deal with RBS B on a daily basis. I have had it UP TO HERE with their behavior. I am very simply ENRAGED

Excuse me if I have been conditioned to jump to the defense of the evil Chilonim. Nine times out of ten, THEY are the moral ones.