Just to be fair, even if you believe that Israel is in a state of war with Hamas controlled Gaza (and therefore can have a legal blockade and can stop ships in international waters) - there is an international law of war that it is illegal to place collective punishment on the citizens of a country for the country's actions. The severity of the blockade is absolutely collective punishment. The Israeli blockade is so strict, it does not allow normal goods to pass through - only basic goods. All goods that are a bit more than basic are smuggled in. This includes meats, chocolates, toys, basic building materials (to do repairs following the war a year and a half ago). 1.7 million Gazans are essentially in jail. And that is illegal and immoral. Now many of you will claim that the majority of the 1.7m are terrorists. I would strongly disagree and in fact many of the are terrorized by Hamas as well. The majority just want the opportunity to live a normal life. Many of you may point to Gilad Shalit as a reason for collective punishment. I think that the logic is flawed, and frankly the Israeli government does not connect the two and therefore no one can claim that the entire Gaza population should be punished for the capture of Shalit.
In short, the blockade as a concept - meaning Israel requiring to search goods entering Gaza - is lawful. The strict limitations on the blockade is collective punishment and is illegal. Israel has to change its policies.
The blockade is illegal because it prevents the passage of normal goods? Gaza can have whatever goods it needs via other ports in Israel or Egypt. Are you saying Israel or Egypt will prohibit the importation of chocolate or meat or building materials?
Whoever said the blockade is because of Shalit? How about because without it, Hamas would bring in missiles, bombs and guns, all for the purpose of killing Israeli civilians. So you think Israel should just allow that to happen?
You even write that many Gazans are terrorized by Hamas as well, yet your conclusion is that the one who has to change their policies is Israel. Yes, that makes perfect sense to me, Slingshot.
Wanna Saab - Is it "Saab" the car or are you referring to crying? Anyway, we cannot change Hamas, we can only change ourselves. Secondly, that is correct - the blockade does not allow chocolates, building materials, meats, canned fruits and many other items that are necessities for normative living. Israel, I believe, is doing it in order to show a differentiation between Palestinian life under Hamas and Palestinian life under the PA in the West Bank. This is an attempt to show the world that a Hamas run state is destructive and the status quo is best. The world still disagrees and blames Israel for the terrible life in Gaza (more than they blame Hamas). All I am doing is showing with facts, that they are at least partially right. And I said that the blockade in legal; collective punishment via the harshness of the blockade (only letting in bare necessities for survival) is illegal.
I never heard that they don't allow in chocolate because they want to demonstrate how horrible it is to live under Hams tyranny. Maybe you're right. Frankly, I don't care. If preventing them from bringing in rockets bombs and guns may also mean depriving them of chocolate, I won't shed a tear. I assure you that discomfort is nothing compared to the discomfort of having your house hit by a missile, your child blown up at a pizza store, or the countless other deaths and injuries they have give Israel in return for the land they so wanted.
It's sort of like, if I'm rushing my kid to the hospital, I don't really care if I get a speeding ticket.
We cannot change Hamas, we can only change ourselves? Wrong. "Hey Hamas, want some chocolate? OK, then stop launching missiles! Otherwise, you never know what you're gonna get."
1. Gaza is not a country. The law you cite is irrelevant to the legality of the blockade, whether or not you want to call it "collective punishment".
2. The severity of the blockade is in the eye of the beholder. You may define "normal goods" vs. "basic goods" the way you'd like, but it doesn't change the facts. Only you can change the facts. The facts are that the Israeli government allowed nearly 40,000 tons of meat products into Gaza 2009, not to mention over 1,500 tons of building material, and tens of thousands of tons more in baby foods, hygiene products, clothing, school supplies, animal food, etc.
Do they send in chocolate or canned foods? Dunno. My guess is that they do. But what's the difference? The point is that to call it collective punishment or a jail is a distortion of the facts. You're simply wrong.
Kasay - you are right. But if you read the Arabic press during the election period, you would realize that they voted OUT the PA more than they voted IN Hamas. the PA is so corrupt, and Hamas promised them change. Just like Ariel Sharon promised to keep Gush Katif. Politics sucks, so we cannot blame the people, just like we don't blame all of the Dati Leumi for not listening to Daas Torah and instead voting for Sharon (and not Agudah), thus enabling the disengagement. (that was a footnote). Also, the Israeli government legitimized Hamas by allowing them to run. We had the power to stop it and did not.
Wanna Saab - I see you are Canadian so I will try and type slower...(just kidding :-)) - The Israeli government is breaking international law by enforcing collective punishment on 1.7m civilians for the Palestinian government's policies. That's it. That policy needs to change.
Just the facts - you are making a good point, but you cannot just quote the small amounts, like detailed by Israel here: http://tinyurl.com/36pwocu You have to do the math - based on the needs of the people and the supply of very limited goods. I call it collective punishment, which is illegal. Others can call it economic sanctions. But you cannot - even with your facts - call it the provisions of normal goods. When a truck comes with donated goods from humanitarian groups and we do not allow it in, because it it canned fruit, chocolates, toys, whatever - that is actively hurting Palestinian lives. That is (I believe) illegal.
Slingshot, read my first post and you'll see that I am also American. I feel your comment was collective punishment on all Canadians and therefore it is illegal. You have to change your policy.
You're saying Israel's blockade is illegal. What about Hamas rockets and suicide bombers, hmmm? You cry for Gazans' chocolate and say Israel has to change? Maybe I should type a little slower for you, Slingshot!
Wanna Saab - sorry for the insult. It was just a joke. Again, we - as a humane democracy - have to act within the law. Hamas does too. But they don't. that is why the blockade is legal. to prevent weapons from entering. But we must allow the Palestinians to attempt to live a normal life - especially when goods are being donated and refused entry. It is simply illegal.
Please cite the international law showing that what Israel is doing is illegal.
Yes, do the math - 44 lbs of meat, chicken and fish products per person in 2009! 130 lbs of wheat per person in 2009! 48 lbs of hygiene products per person in 2009! 63 lbs of "mixed additional food products" per person in 2009! What does that include? Probably your canned goods and chocolates. And on and on. The numbers are very revealing, proportionate to the population.
The leftist sites that you are reading (and probably quoting) would like you to feel bad for the Palestinians by complaining that they don't get their luxuries (which, by the way, they get plenty of by smuggling through the Egyptian crossings and via the tunnels). They are leading quite a normal life (under the circumstances), and don't believe anyone who tells you otherwise, without getting the facts, just the facts.
Just the facts - The fact is that Israel is limiting the amount of non-core goods in, even though they are being requested to enter. Israel is refusing to try and prevent normative life under Hamas rule.
I know the facts. I sent them to you. I got my data from the IDF, not left wing sites that you would have rather me used.
And the facts are: Israel prevents goods in. The blockade is legal, in order to prevent weapons of contraband materials. But they are punishing the population to fabricate political points, and that is illegal. Nothing to do with Left or Right wing. Illegal.
You say you have the facts, I say, show me - where is it written what you claim, that "punishing the population to fabricate political points" is illegal"?
I didn't say that punishing people is nice, but what the government is doing is LEGAL. Please, prove me wrong. You can't.
And while you're at it, explain to me what is really so bad about preventing canned fruit and chocolate from coming in? I mean, gimme a break. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill. They are getting everything they need, by hook or by crook (mostly by crook), so just quit crying about it.
And I saw the IDF stats too, that's where all the math came from. Now where are you going to try pull the "collective punishment" illegality bit from - an IDF site or a leftist site?
Just the facts - Collective punishment is the punishment of a group of people as a result of the behavior of one or more other individuals or groups. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions. Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by resistance movements. There you go. It is illegal. and this is exactly was Israel is doing.
And what is bad about preventing those goods into Gaza - is that it is an active way to lower the overall standard of living unnecessarily. That is, by definition, collective punishment. Illegal according to international laws of war, to which free democracies are supposed to subscribe.
Talk about selective quoting. Why not finish off the Wikipedia entry?
"Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by resistance movements (e.g. destroying whole towns and villages where attacks have taken place)."
According you, is withholding chocolate just another example of collective punishment, similar to "destroying whole towns and villages"?
I can't believe you're serious about that.
You know just as well as I do that Israel goes me'al ume'eiver to prevent any unnecessary harm to its enemies, justified or not. The argument that Israel is now going against the Geneva convention because of this is simply grabbing at straws.
Just the facts - I love the progression of the discussion. You have now abandoned "facts" as your argument and are now just making an arbitrary decision as to what you consider serious and what you consider "grabbing at straws". the downside is that you have to change your screen name...since you are no longer interested in fact. I think you now admit that I have proven all of my case with fact. I don't believe that Israel is arbitrarily withholding certain goods that humanitarians want to bring in. I think Israel wants to ensure that Gazans live in poverty, while the West Bank (relatively) flourishes. Now here I am using conjecture based on the facts. But why else would Israel not allow in small building materials to fix up the destroyed homes, chocolate and toys for the 1 million kids, variety of foods for health, etc. etc. I don't think it is accidental. I think it is calculated.
And the reason why I left out "e.g. destroying whole towns and villages where attacks have taken place" - was because I did not want to get into a whole thing about whether or not Israel conducted war crimes in the 2nd Lebanon war and in Gaza Cast Lead war - via destroying city infrastructure - like roads, bridges, airport runways, etc. I know that you are "just the facts" and may get confused and call Israel war criminals for breaking Geneva Conventions by "destroying whole towns and villages where attacks have taken place". Those wars were complicated and beyond the purview of this discussion.
Wrong again. From the beginning I have questioned your terminology and subjective definition of collective punishment. See particularly my first and second posts.
My arguments have stemmed from the facts, and when there are none that prove otherwise, I show how there is no factual evidence to prove your position. Hence, the (consistent) screen name.
My last post was taking you to task on your subjectivity in both selectively leaving out the relevant and appropriate examples given, as well as your subjectivity in defining your terms.
The fact is that the Palestinians in Gaza are getting all they need. I did the math you requested, which proves it.
What small building materials are being withheld? Again with the chocolate? Have you got some sort of sweet tooth or something? 1 million kids?! Um, would you like to back up that fact? No variety of healthy foods?! 26 thousand tons of produce isn't enough for you? 12 thousand tons of dairy products? Why don't you do the math this time?
And yes, you have succeeded in confusing me. Are you telling me that you left of the end of the Wikipedia quote because you thought that I would claim that since Israel destroyed infrastructure they violated the Geneva convention? Implication: you hold that they did not violate the Geneva convention with that. Yet you are arguing that withholding some chocolate is a violation. You totally lost me there, dude. Please brush up on your opinion before your next response.
Bottom line - the Palestinians are living just fine in Gaza, as the numbers (and pictures!) show. There is no hard data to uphold any "collective punishment" claims, only slanted and subjective leftist views.
Just the facts - for goodness sake, half of the Anglo community refused aliya until Nefesh b'nefesh stuffed 5 figures in their pockets and someone started importing Hershey's. And yes I have a sweet tooth! So having a nice home, access to healthcare, food variety, job opps, etc - create a nice standard of living. When those things are gone, it is a low standard and people get upset.
The Palestinians are living just fine in Gaza? are you mad?
All I am saying is that Israel, in a calculated way, is ensuring that Palestinians in Gaza have a low quality of life. 40% unemployment (not having work can make a man crazy). 80% of Gazans are in poverty. Therefore the aid. Still 17.5% are malnourished (acc. to a recent Johns Hopkins study). This includes the 1m kids (according to the CIA, 60% of the population in under 18).
And on the confusing issue - you said it 100% right. But the war issue is complex, so lets focus on the blockade.
Out of the 2 of us, I am using facts and not wavering with my opinion.
Once again you are skewing the facts, misleading and misunderstanding, and your comparisons demonstrate your inability to prove your point.
You first compared the lack of chocolate in Gaza with the destruction of an entire town, and now you are comparing an American who was been born and bread in percentage-wise the highest socio-economic class in the world, to a Palestinian in Gaza?! And you call me mad? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
Please read what I wrote, and don't quote me out of context. The Palestinians are living just fine, yes, according to their standard of living. That is their "circumstances" to which I refer. I wrote, "they are getting everything they need" - that does not mean we need to give them 5 figures. Healthcare, food variety, etc. - they have it all. "Create a nice standard of living"?! Why give them more than they deserve or than they had before?
Now, of course I have to admit that being under a blockade definitely hampers one's quality of life, but don't make it out as if they were living in the Hamptons until now. This is the name of the game. War is not easy on anyone, on both sides of the equation. But only only someone out to get Israel will distort the situation into one where Israel is violating the Geneva convention. Hey, even the Israeli courts, not exactly your most right-winged bunch, maintain that there is nothing illegal about Israel's actions.
Unemployment, malnourishment, poverty - you make it seem like before the blockade they were living like a prince! Like I said, both sides are living in difficult times. So the blockade raises the percentages a bit. Poverty didn't go from zero to eighty because of Israel. Once again, you skew the facts.
True, they say 60% of the population is young, under 20 (you say 18), but when you want to send "toys for the 1 million kids", unless you are talking about ipads and laptops, teenagers don't play with toys any more that you do. Once again, you mislead with your "facts".
Summary: You say that Israel is performing collective punishment on the Palestinians in Gaza. Your proof is that there is a reduced quality of life in Gaza. This is totally your opinion.
I say the facts show that Israel sends in all that is necessary for them to live a normal life. The numbers show this unequivocally.
Seems we disagree about the definition of collective punishment. You say even a slight reduction in quality of life falls under the definition. I say that I am not in violation of the Geneva convention when I ground my kids.
Just the facts - Firstly, I love a spirited debate, and it has been fun and challenging debating you. So thanks for that.
I am just going to focus on your conclusion: "You say that Israel is performing collective punishment on the Palestinians in Gaza." Yes.
"Your proof is that there is a reduced quality of life in Gaza." Kind of. My proof is that Israel has been unreasonably limiting in the goods that they allow in.
"This is totally your opinion." No. That is not my opinion. It is fact. My opinion is WHY Israel limits it. You just think that it is irrelevant and I don't.
"I say the facts show that Israel sends in all that is necessary for them to live a normal life. The numbers show this unequivocally." No. The facts show that Israel allows entry to goods that allow them to live...barely (17.5% malnourished). not to live a normal life.
"Seems we disagree about the definition of collective punishment." I don't think so. I think that we agree, but you think that destroying cities is the issue and not allowing in goods resulting in an unnecessarily low standard of living is also collective punishment, but so minor and ridiculous, that it is "grabbing at straws".
"You say even a slight reduction in quality of life falls under the definition." Kind of. The difference is that humanitarians are trying to bring in the goods. and Israel refuses. I am not saying that Israel has to supply it. They should just simply allow it in. and they do not. Why?
"I say that I am not in violation of the Geneva convention when I ground my kids." Good one!
Perhaps the bottom line question is: what is the truth about life in Gaza?
Your take, based on your sources, is that there is a humanitarian crisis going on there, wherein Israel's blockade has caused unemployment, poverty, malnourishment, and lack of chocolate. This, you term, "collective punishment" cause by Israel.
My take is that the impression that you get is simply not the case. The hundreds of thousands of tons of goods that Israel sends in, along with all the smuggled stuff, allows them to live life "unpunished" by Israel.
Now, you question why Israel sets limits and doesn't just let every single aide truck in? That is a separate question. The fact of the matter is that (a) Israel is living up to humanitarian standards as determined by the (leftist!) courts, and (b) the Palestinians can and do get whatever they want.
See, for example: 1. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135221
Favorite quotes: "U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton admitted to a Congressional committee last April, 'The [Gaza] crossings are no longer completely closed…. A lot of what has been said was not permitted to cross is just not accurate.' "
"Janine Zacharia of the Washington Post reported last week, 'If you walk down Gaza City's main thoroughfare -Salah al-Din Street - grocery stores are stocked wall-too-wall with everything from fresh Israeli yogurts and hummus to Cocoa Puffs smuggled in from Egypt.' Smuggled goods are cheaper than the regular price."
"The Bethlehem-based Ma'an news agency stated last February, 'Gaza markets are saturated with goods.'"
"Arabic-language PalToday website, based in Gaza, recently posted pictures showing a world of plenty for residents, despite more than two years of reports that the area is suffering from a humanitarian crisis."
"Officials also said that construction has stopped because Hamas has taken workers from their jobs"
"COGAT also noted, “[T]here are no shortages in Gaza, but there is a problem of unemployment, primarily for civilians who are not close to Hamas and have no buying power. "
Just to be fair, even if you believe that Israel is in a state of war with Hamas controlled Gaza (and therefore can have a legal blockade and can stop ships in international waters) - there is an international law of war that it is illegal to place collective punishment on the citizens of a country for the country's actions. The severity of the blockade is absolutely collective punishment. The Israeli blockade is so strict, it does not allow normal goods to pass through - only basic goods. All goods that are a bit more than basic are smuggled in. This includes meats, chocolates, toys, basic building materials (to do repairs following the war a year and a half ago). 1.7 million Gazans are essentially in jail. And that is illegal and immoral. Now many of you will claim that the majority of the 1.7m are terrorists. I would strongly disagree and in fact many of the are terrorized by Hamas as well. The majority just want the opportunity to live a normal life. Many of you may point to Gilad Shalit as a reason for collective punishment. I think that the logic is flawed, and frankly the Israeli government does not connect the two and therefore no one can claim that the entire Gaza population should be punished for the capture of Shalit.
ReplyDeleteIn short, the blockade as a concept - meaning Israel requiring to search goods entering Gaza - is lawful. The strict limitations on the blockade is collective punishment and is illegal. Israel has to change its policies.
The blockade is illegal because it prevents the passage of normal goods? Gaza can have whatever goods it needs via other ports in Israel or Egypt. Are you saying Israel or Egypt will prohibit the importation of chocolate or meat or building materials?
ReplyDeleteWhoever said the blockade is because of Shalit? How about because without it, Hamas would bring in missiles, bombs and guns, all for the purpose of killing Israeli civilians. So you think Israel should just allow that to happen?
You even write that many Gazans are terrorized by Hamas as well, yet your conclusion is that the one who has to change their policies is Israel. Yes, that makes perfect sense to me, Slingshot.
Wanna Saab -
ReplyDeleteIs it "Saab" the car or are you referring to crying?
Anyway, we cannot change Hamas, we can only change ourselves. Secondly, that is correct - the blockade does not allow chocolates, building materials, meats, canned fruits and many other items that are necessities for normative living.
Israel, I believe, is doing it in order to show a differentiation between Palestinian life under Hamas and Palestinian life under the PA in the West Bank.
This is an attempt to show the world that a Hamas run state is destructive and the status quo is best. The world still disagrees and blames Israel for the terrible life in Gaza (more than they blame Hamas). All I am doing is showing with facts, that they are at least partially right.
And I said that the blockade in legal; collective punishment via the harshness of the blockade (only letting in bare necessities for survival) is illegal.
The civilians living there voted Hamas into power. That makes them NOT interested in living a normal life.
ReplyDeleteSling, it's both.
ReplyDeleteI never heard that they don't allow in chocolate because they want to demonstrate how horrible it is to live under Hams tyranny. Maybe you're right. Frankly, I don't care. If preventing them from bringing in rockets bombs and guns may also mean depriving them of chocolate, I won't shed a tear. I assure you that discomfort is nothing compared to the discomfort of having your house hit by a missile, your child blown up at a pizza store, or the countless other deaths and injuries they have give Israel in return for the land they so wanted.
It's sort of like, if I'm rushing my kid to the hospital, I don't really care if I get a speeding ticket.
We cannot change Hamas, we can only change ourselves? Wrong. "Hey Hamas, want some chocolate? OK, then stop launching missiles! Otherwise, you never know what you're gonna get."
Slingshot:
ReplyDelete1. Gaza is not a country. The law you cite is irrelevant to the legality of the blockade, whether or not you want to call it "collective punishment".
2. The severity of the blockade is in the eye of the beholder. You may define "normal goods" vs. "basic goods" the way you'd like, but it doesn't change the facts. Only you can change the facts. The facts are that the Israeli government allowed nearly 40,000 tons of meat products into Gaza 2009, not to mention over 1,500 tons of building material, and tens of thousands of tons more in baby foods, hygiene products, clothing, school supplies, animal food, etc.
Do they send in chocolate or canned foods? Dunno. My guess is that they do. But what's the difference? The point is that to call it collective punishment or a jail is a distortion of the facts. You're simply wrong.
Kasay -
ReplyDeleteyou are right. But if you read the Arabic press during the election period, you would realize that they voted OUT the PA more than they voted IN Hamas. the PA is so corrupt, and Hamas promised them change. Just like Ariel Sharon promised to keep Gush Katif. Politics sucks, so we cannot blame the people, just like we don't blame all of the Dati Leumi for not listening to Daas Torah and instead voting for Sharon (and not Agudah), thus enabling the disengagement. (that was a footnote).
Also, the Israeli government legitimized Hamas by allowing them to run. We had the power to stop it and did not.
Wanna Saab -
I see you are Canadian so I will try and type slower...(just kidding :-)) - The Israeli government is breaking international law by enforcing collective punishment on 1.7m civilians for the Palestinian government's policies. That's it. That policy needs to change.
Just the facts -
ReplyDeleteyou are making a good point, but you cannot just quote the small amounts, like detailed by Israel here:
http://tinyurl.com/36pwocu
You have to do the math - based on the needs of the people and the supply of very limited goods. I call it collective punishment, which is illegal. Others can call it economic sanctions. But you cannot - even with your facts - call it the provisions of normal goods. When a truck comes with donated goods from humanitarian groups and we do not allow it in, because it it canned fruit, chocolates, toys, whatever - that is actively hurting Palestinian lives. That is (I believe) illegal.
Slingshot, read my first post and you'll see that I am also American. I feel your comment was collective punishment on all Canadians and therefore it is illegal. You have to change your policy.
ReplyDeleteYou're saying Israel's blockade is illegal. What about Hamas rockets and suicide bombers, hmmm? You cry for Gazans' chocolate and say Israel has to change? Maybe I should type a little slower for you, Slingshot!
Wanna Saab -
ReplyDeletesorry for the insult. It was just a joke.
Again, we - as a humane democracy - have to act within the law.
Hamas does too. But they don't. that is why the blockade is legal. to prevent weapons from entering. But we must allow the Palestinians to attempt to live a normal life - especially when goods are being donated and refused entry. It is simply illegal.
Slingshot:
ReplyDeletePlease cite the international law showing that what Israel is doing is illegal.
Yes, do the math -
44 lbs of meat, chicken and fish products per person in 2009!
130 lbs of wheat per person in 2009!
48 lbs of hygiene products per person in 2009!
63 lbs of "mixed additional food products" per person in 2009! What does that include? Probably your canned goods and chocolates.
And on and on.
The numbers are very revealing, proportionate to the population.
The leftist sites that you are reading (and probably quoting) would like you to feel bad for the Palestinians by complaining that they don't get their luxuries (which, by the way, they get plenty of by smuggling through the Egyptian crossings and via the tunnels). They are leading quite a normal life (under the circumstances), and don't believe anyone who tells you otherwise, without getting the facts, just the facts.
Just the facts -
ReplyDeleteThe fact is that Israel is limiting the amount of non-core goods in, even though they are being requested to enter. Israel is refusing to try and prevent normative life under Hamas rule.
I know the facts. I sent them to you. I got my data from the IDF, not left wing sites that you would have rather me used.
And the facts are: Israel prevents goods in. The blockade is legal, in order to prevent weapons of contraband materials. But they are punishing the population to fabricate political points, and that is illegal. Nothing to do with Left or Right wing. Illegal.
Slingshot:
ReplyDeleteYou say you have the facts, I say, show me - where is it written what you claim, that "punishing the population to fabricate political points" is illegal"?
I didn't say that punishing people is nice, but what the government is doing is LEGAL. Please, prove me wrong. You can't.
And while you're at it, explain to me what is really so bad about preventing canned fruit and chocolate from coming in? I mean, gimme a break. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill. They are getting everything they need, by hook or by crook (mostly by crook), so just quit crying about it.
And I saw the IDF stats too, that's where all the math came from. Now where are you going to try pull the "collective punishment" illegality bit from - an IDF site or a leftist site?
Slingshot said...
ReplyDeleteWanna Saab -
Is it "Saab" the car or are you referring to crying?
Slingshot - Is it a flotilla "slingshot" and are you aiming or receiving?
Just the facts -
ReplyDeleteCollective punishment is the punishment of a group of people as a result of the behavior of one or more other individuals or groups. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions. Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by resistance movements.
There you go. It is illegal. and this is exactly was Israel is doing.
And what is bad about preventing those goods into Gaza - is that it is an active way to lower the overall standard of living unnecessarily. That is, by definition, collective punishment. Illegal according to international laws of war, to which free democracies are supposed to subscribe.
Slingshot:
ReplyDeleteTalk about selective quoting. Why not finish off the Wikipedia entry?
"Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by resistance movements (e.g. destroying whole towns and villages where attacks have taken place)."
According you, is withholding chocolate just another example of collective punishment, similar to "destroying whole towns and villages"?
I can't believe you're serious about that.
You know just as well as I do that Israel goes me'al ume'eiver to prevent any unnecessary harm to its enemies, justified or not. The argument that Israel is now going against the Geneva convention because of this is simply grabbing at straws.
Just the facts -
ReplyDeleteI love the progression of the discussion. You have now abandoned "facts" as your argument and are now just making an arbitrary decision as to what you consider serious and what you consider "grabbing at straws". the downside is that you have to change your screen name...since you are no longer interested in fact. I think you now admit that I have proven all of my case with fact. I don't believe that Israel is arbitrarily withholding certain goods that humanitarians want to bring in. I think Israel wants to ensure that Gazans live in poverty, while the West Bank (relatively) flourishes. Now here I am using conjecture based on the facts. But why else would Israel not allow in small building materials to fix up the destroyed homes, chocolate and toys for the 1 million kids, variety of foods for health, etc. etc. I don't think it is accidental. I think it is calculated.
And the reason why I left out "e.g. destroying whole towns and villages where attacks have taken place" - was because I did not want to get into a whole thing about whether or not Israel conducted war crimes in the 2nd Lebanon war and in Gaza Cast Lead war - via destroying city infrastructure - like roads, bridges, airport runways, etc. I know that you are "just the facts" and may get confused and call Israel war criminals for breaking Geneva Conventions by "destroying whole towns and villages where attacks have taken place". Those wars were complicated and beyond the purview of this discussion.
Slingshot:
ReplyDeleteWrong again. From the beginning I have questioned your terminology and subjective definition of collective punishment. See particularly my first and second posts.
My arguments have stemmed from the facts, and when there are none that prove otherwise, I show how there is no factual evidence to prove your position. Hence, the (consistent) screen name.
My last post was taking you to task on your subjectivity in both selectively leaving out the relevant and appropriate examples given, as well as your subjectivity in defining your terms.
The fact is that the Palestinians in Gaza are getting all they need. I did the math you requested, which proves it.
What small building materials are being withheld?
Again with the chocolate? Have you got some sort of sweet tooth or something?
1 million kids?! Um, would you like to back up that fact?
No variety of healthy foods?! 26 thousand tons of produce isn't enough for you? 12 thousand tons of dairy products? Why don't you do the math this time?
And yes, you have succeeded in confusing me. Are you telling me that you left of the end of the Wikipedia quote because you thought that I would claim that since Israel destroyed infrastructure they violated the Geneva convention? Implication: you hold that they did not violate the Geneva convention with that. Yet you are arguing that withholding some chocolate is a violation. You totally lost me there, dude. Please brush up on your opinion before your next response.
Bottom line - the Palestinians are living just fine in Gaza, as the numbers (and pictures!) show. There is no hard data to uphold any "collective punishment" claims, only slanted and subjective leftist views.
Just the facts -
ReplyDeletefor goodness sake, half of the Anglo community refused aliya until Nefesh b'nefesh stuffed 5 figures in their pockets and someone started importing Hershey's. And yes I have a sweet tooth! So having a nice home, access to healthcare, food variety, job opps, etc - create a nice standard of living. When those things are gone, it is a low standard and people get upset.
The Palestinians are living just fine in Gaza? are you mad?
All I am saying is that Israel, in a calculated way, is ensuring that Palestinians in Gaza have a low quality of life. 40% unemployment (not having work can make a man crazy). 80% of Gazans are in poverty. Therefore the aid. Still 17.5% are malnourished (acc. to a recent Johns Hopkins study). This includes the 1m kids (according to the CIA, 60% of the population in under 18).
And on the confusing issue - you said it 100% right. But the war issue is complex, so lets focus on the blockade.
Out of the 2 of us, I am using facts and not wavering with my opinion.
Slingshot:
ReplyDeleteOnce again you are skewing the facts, misleading and misunderstanding, and your comparisons demonstrate your inability to prove your point.
You first compared the lack of chocolate in Gaza with the destruction of an entire town, and now you are comparing an American who was been born and bread in percentage-wise the highest socio-economic class in the world, to a Palestinian in Gaza?! And you call me mad? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
Please read what I wrote, and don't quote me out of context. The Palestinians are living just fine, yes, according to their standard of living. That is their "circumstances" to which I refer. I wrote, "they are getting everything they need" - that does not mean we need to give them 5 figures. Healthcare, food variety, etc. - they have it all. "Create a nice standard of living"?! Why give them more than they deserve or than they had before?
Now, of course I have to admit that being under a blockade definitely hampers one's quality of life, but don't make it out as if they were living in the Hamptons until now. This is the name of the game. War is not easy on anyone, on both sides of the equation. But only only someone out to get Israel will distort the situation into one where Israel is violating the Geneva convention. Hey, even the Israeli courts, not exactly your most right-winged bunch, maintain that there is nothing illegal about Israel's actions.
Unemployment, malnourishment, poverty - you make it seem like before the blockade they were living like a prince! Like I said, both sides are living in difficult times. So the blockade raises the percentages a bit. Poverty didn't go from zero to eighty because of Israel. Once again, you skew the facts.
True, they say 60% of the population is young, under 20 (you say 18), but when you want to send "toys for the 1 million kids", unless you are talking about ipads and laptops, teenagers don't play with toys any more that you do. Once again, you mislead with your "facts".
Summary:
You say that Israel is performing collective punishment on the Palestinians in Gaza. Your proof is that there is a reduced quality of life in Gaza. This is totally your opinion.
I say the facts show that Israel sends in all that is necessary for them to live a normal life. The numbers show this unequivocally.
Seems we disagree about the definition of collective punishment. You say even a slight reduction in quality of life falls under the definition. I say that I am not in violation of the Geneva convention when I ground my kids.
Just the facts -
ReplyDeleteFirstly, I love a spirited debate, and it has been fun and challenging debating you. So thanks for that.
I am just going to focus on your conclusion:
"You say that Israel is performing collective punishment on the Palestinians in Gaza."
Yes.
"Your proof is that there is a reduced quality of life in Gaza." Kind of.
My proof is that Israel has been unreasonably limiting in the goods that they allow in.
"This is totally your opinion."
No.
That is not my opinion. It is fact. My opinion is WHY Israel limits it. You just think that it is irrelevant and I don't.
"I say the facts show that Israel sends in all that is necessary for them to live a normal life. The numbers show this unequivocally." No.
The facts show that Israel allows entry to goods that allow them to live...barely (17.5% malnourished). not to live a normal life.
"Seems we disagree about the definition of collective punishment."
I don't think so.
I think that we agree, but you think that destroying cities is the issue and not allowing in goods resulting in an unnecessarily low standard of living is also collective punishment, but so minor and ridiculous, that it is "grabbing at straws".
"You say even a slight reduction in quality of life falls under the definition."
Kind of.
The difference is that humanitarians are trying to bring in the goods. and Israel refuses. I am not saying that Israel has to supply it. They should just simply allow it in. and they do not. Why?
"I say that I am not in violation of the Geneva convention when I ground my kids." Good one!
Slingshot:
ReplyDeleteSorry, been busy.
Perhaps the bottom line question is: what is the truth about life in Gaza?
Your take, based on your sources, is that there is a humanitarian crisis going on there, wherein Israel's blockade has caused unemployment, poverty, malnourishment, and lack of chocolate. This, you term, "collective punishment" cause by Israel.
My take is that the impression that you get is simply not the case. The hundreds of thousands of tons of goods that Israel sends in, along with all the smuggled stuff, allows them to live life "unpunished" by Israel.
Now, you question why Israel sets limits and doesn't just let every single aide truck in? That is a separate question. The fact of the matter is that (a) Israel is living up to humanitarian standards as determined by the (leftist!) courts, and (b) the Palestinians can and do get whatever they want.
See, for example:
1. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135221
2. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/137965
3. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/137613
Favorite quotes:
"U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton admitted to a Congressional committee last April, 'The [Gaza] crossings are no longer completely closed…. A lot of what has been said was not permitted to cross is just not accurate.' "
"Janine Zacharia of the Washington Post reported last week, 'If you walk down Gaza City's main thoroughfare -Salah al-Din Street - grocery stores are stocked wall-too-wall with everything from fresh Israeli yogurts and hummus to Cocoa Puffs smuggled in from Egypt.' Smuggled goods are cheaper than the regular price."
"The Bethlehem-based Ma'an news agency stated last February, 'Gaza markets are saturated with goods.'"
"Arabic-language PalToday website, based in Gaza, recently posted pictures showing a world of plenty for residents, despite more than two years of reports that the area is suffering from a humanitarian crisis."
"Officials also said that construction has stopped because Hamas has taken workers from their jobs"
"COGAT also noted, “[T]here are no shortages in Gaza, but there is a problem of unemployment, primarily for civilians who are not close to Hamas and have no buying power. "