Jun 6, 2010

Yeshiva High School of Bet Shemesh developments

The attempts to thwart the opening of the new Yeshiva High School continue. I have heard that some people who oppose it convinced the administration of the school to go to Rav Shmuel Auerbach to discuss it. When they could not convince the administration to retract and shut down, they at least got them to agree to move the school to old Bet Shemesh instead of opening up in the neighborhood.

Since then I have heard that they are still attempting to thwart the opening and have begun trying to intimidate or convince parents who registered their children to withdraw their registration and send to other yeshiva ketanas.

I say, if these rumors are true, then they are not keeping their side of the deal. They worked out a compromise, that the yeshiva will be located outside of RBS. By the very nature of an agreement that means that they agreed to leave them alone if they would agree to that. Yet they are still fighting the opening. If so, I say, the administration should also retract and open doors in RBS. An agreement has to be two ways.

I was asked to post the following notice:
------

There is a new Chareidi Yeshivah High School with full secular studies curriculum, similar to Maarava, called Yeshivat Bet Shemesh, which will be opening in Ramat Bet Shemesh in Elul this year, and, of course, it has caused extremist Chareidi elements some consternation. Apparently an attempt is being made by certain people to intimidate or threaten parents into not sending their sons to this school, even though it may be davka appropriate for them.


Any such attempts which have been recorded (audio or video) should be passed on to those who are working to make this school a reality in RBS. Anyone who wants more information should contact Catriel Lev at clev@actcom.com.

44 comments:

  1. a - i knew about this 2 weeks ago.
    b - a respectable rav told me that the same name that were used on the pashkevalim signs put up against the yeshiva, were advised and approved the functions of the yeshiva. See if you can wrap your head around that one.

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  2. what is wrong with going to speak with parents?
    every school and yeshiva does recruiting work. why does somebody who decides to send to a tichon have a get out of jail free card to make himself off-limits to the countless recruiters from yeshivas?
    were they intimidating anybody? or just trying to convince them cordially?

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  3. whatsinaname-

    which name?
    the same one that "didn't really sign?"

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  4. adderabbah! if he supported the yeshiva, it makes sense that he didn't really sign the letter!

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  5. I dont know if what anyone says is true or not - a letter that presents one side of the story to the signatories just as much as a respected rav said.. they both might be not true, partially true or completely true.

    Regardless, I have heard plenty of stories over the years of situations where rabbonim publicly had to oppose something yet in private supported it.

    It doesnt say much for their leadership skills, but thats the way it is.

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  6. This is beyond despicable. My son entered Maarva the year we made aliyah. He had an extremely difficult first year. (Much worse than is "typical".) It would have been immeasurably easier had their been a non-dorming option like this Yeshiva. I know of other boys who are suffering being in a dorm.

    Whoever is opposing this Yeshiva has no regard for the needs of their fellow Jews.

    Are they really so insecure about their own derech that they must eliminate any and all potential FULLY LEGITIMATE alternatives?

    I'm disgusted.

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  7. They weren't "recruiting" for a yeshiva k'tana, they were sending goons around to threaten pple who plan to send to the new place.
    Catriel Lev, what is your connection? Were you asked to represent the school?
    Finally, the new school will NOT have a full secular studies program. They will have a yeshiva k'tana program, but also offer basic math and English (and subjects like Jewish history can be counted both ways.)Even so, there is opposition - and the pashkevilim do not single out the new place, the pple behind it don't want pple to send to Maarava either...

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  8. Since it has been brought up in the comments to this blog:

    I wish to clarify that I have no connection to the Yeshivah, and in no way represent the Yeshivah, and was not asked by anyone associated with the Yeshivah to collect information from the parents on behalf of the Yeshivah.

    I am simply working with independent people who are trying to prevent extremists from intimidating people on any topic, including this one.

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  9. Hi Rafi,

    Since Catriel has now stated that he is not the contact person for the yeshiva and has no connection to the school in any way, could you please remove his portion of your post? It is quite misleading.

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  10. How could anyone find this misleading? And even if they did... so what?

    It's not like Catriel demanded that anyone who feels they've been abused or demeaned at a city facility should contact him as a private person instead of the official in charge.

    Anyone who lives here, or even reads this blog regularly, should know exactly who he is, and what he's done locally. If you don't, you need to either (a) get out more or (b) practice your reading comprehension.

    If you don't live here (and "anonymous" doesn't really say much...) then it doesn't really matter...

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  11. I don't understand why the yeshiva even caved to the pressure of moving it outside RBS. If they believe in the need for this type of yeshiva for the kids in this neighborhood, then this neighborhood is where it should be. Why did they have to bow to these goons even that much?

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  12. Everyone of us who lives in RBS should be supporting this school - whether it is our chosen derech, or not. It is obvious this type of a school is necessary and it would be tragic for the children of many of our neighbors if this gets shut down.

    It goes without saying that if you think this school is a potential choice for you in the future - even more so you need to stand up and be counted. If your Rabbi is not supporting this - challenge him to get involved to ensure the success of this school.

    We cannot give in to religious terrorism!

    If the goons succeed in stopping this - they will feel they can stop other insititutions that don't meet their "standards".

    This is one of those times in life that the principle is overwhelming. We all need to stand up and be counted.

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  13. I have heard some of the Rabbi's are pressuring their congregants not to send kids there? Anyone hear about this?

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  14. Mr Anonymous - I am guessing what Rafi said is correct. When the "signatories" were asked directly, they probably said the yeshiva was fine and was a good idea. but when the "radical extremesits" asked, they probably asked in a way that they got the answered they wanted.
    However, i repeat what i said before, A Very Respectable Rav confirmed to me that he got support from the same signatories who were signed on the letter.

    Daniel - i heard that some of the other rabbanim in the community were not supporting the yeshiva in the same way others were, thereby closing the door on the yeshiva to open in RBS-A. In order for a yeshiva like this to succeed, it needs the support of the community and its rabbanim. I dont know if they are speaking against it, but supporting it they are not. And thats a shame. a very very big shame.

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  15. I heard from a very good source, that Rav Kornfeld is putting a great deal of pressure on at least one family, including the boy himself, not to go. This is despite the fact that he was told that this is the type of chinuch the boy wants and feels he needs and the parents support his decision.
    It's not just a matter of needing the support of all the rabbanim in order to stay in RBS. It would be fine to have support from half the rabbanim,(which they do have) as long as the other half would have the attitude of "live and let live". But unfortunately, some of the rabbanim who are not supporting the yeshiva are resolved to do anything in their power to stop it-including threats of hafganos outside the yeshiva, working to get siblings kicked out of their schools etc.
    But I do agree with Rafi- if they won't stop the threats and intimidation even now that they agreed to go to Bet Shemesh, then clearly it's not seen as a "p'sharah" by the other side and they should just stay in RBS and fight. The question is, who would really come out there to make a counter-hafgana every morning? We all have lives and the goons don't. It might not be so fair to subject the kids to walking into school every day with people throwing stuff at them. Something to think about.

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  16. Check out R. Habers "pashkevil"
    http://www.torahlab.org/haberblog/the_pashkevil_to_end_all_pashkevil/

    Powerful.

    Rafi, maybe you can link to it directly from blog. Will get the word out there.

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  17. i don't understand why all you guys are calling these people "goons" (and all in the name of tolerance)
    when there are people that protest things violently, you guys complain that darchey noam should be used and when they make civil house calls even that is no good.
    so much for tolereance.
    besides the fact, that i think this whole post is sensationalism.
    as commentors on previous posts have said there aren't too many people that have been planning on sending from RBS to begin with.
    so even is they did go to every one of them, there still isn't as much action going on as you make it seem.
    also, are the people that were visited actually the ones complaning or are all the others complaining for them while they themselves see nothing wrong with it - which would put the entire story in prospective.
    rai- i assumed that since you waited an entire week since this story broke on bechadrey, that you were "simply" verifying the story for yourself and finding out the true details and speaking to the pople that were involved. is this true?

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  18. partially true. I asked around. As far as I can make out it is true. I still posted it, even after I asked around, more for Catriels request to gather information than for myself.

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  19. concerned said
    "This is despite the fact that he was told that this is the type of chinuch the boy wants and feels he needs and the parents support his decision."

    i think there is a very basic issue underlying this comment and many other comments on this thread.
    just as an extreme example, if a boy decided he wanted to go to a chiloni high school (no, i'm not saying that this is a chiloni high school - just giving an extreme example) and somebody told the kid that it his good for him, and his parents didn't mind so much, i would find it safe to assume that all those that comment here would feel it to be important to try to do whatever one may in order to get the kid to change his opinion and thereby remain religious.
    another extreme example: i would assume that most people here would be under agreemnent that yad l'achim which does trmendous work in fighting missionaries, should be commended for their work.
    despite the fact that they interfere with missionary activitiees and try to convince people not to go to miiaionary functions, no one would tell them "hey, live and let live - these missionares feel they are right and should be entitled to their own opinion and those that follow them have every right to"

    obviously the diffence between our issue at hand and these two examples that i gave, is that these two examples cross what is considered the red line of even american born and bred religious jews.
    the issue that is bothering these commentators is not whether the means are acceptable or not, but rather the issue of whether the yeshiva high school is ok or not.
    that may be debated, but calling peole who care about yiddishkeit and what they feel is their red line, and use non- violent modes to accomplish their goals, goons is inapprpriate.
    no individual was threatened or overly pressured except perhaps the people taht were involved in the actual opening (although i don't believe they were threatened either - but it could be that being brought to Reb Shmuel is called being threatened acording to people here) and i believe that the rules change between individuals and communal players which is what the founders automatically become.

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  20. Mr. Anonymous - the way you explain makes me think of the current fight in Ramat Aviv with many residents (I dont know if its a majority or minority) trying to get Chabad out of their nieghborhood. They see Chabad as missionizing among their children and they see it as not fair. Missionize defenseless children who have no concept of what to listen to or not, against parents wishes and values?

    I dont know who is right or wrong. I know the other way I would feel very strongly. If, as you say, secular or christians were missionizing my kids or my friends kids, I would be upset.

    but I seem to not be upset or disturbed, or perhaps to a certain extent I am even satisfied, that Chabad has the ability to missionize among those kids.

    Yet I feel bad for the parents who see their kids, and their values, being "attacked" and missionized.

    I am torn about what to think about what is going on in Ramat Aviv.

    If secular people moved int a religious neighborhood, they would be chased out (see past examples from RBS or other religious areas for evidence of that) - by "chased" I mean pressured heavily to leave with their lives being made very uncomfortable.
    Yet for religious to move to a completely secular place, with the purpose of missionizing at the forefront of their ideals, and we are ok with it? We dont agree with the secular who want those chabadniks out?

    Our street flows only one way...

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  21. yeah i hear your point rafi about our stree flowing one way,
    but probably most people's do.
    i have come to the realisation that most people view the world completely in terms of how it relates to them - beshviliy nivra haolam.
    however, perhaps we could look at it like this - if we really believe in torah and mitzvohs and are really concerned about our fellow jews then we should be concerned about their spiritual well being. even if in the context of olam hazeh they disagree with the fact that we move into their neighboroods and "corrupt their children" one can be certain that after 120 years, when these people get to the oilam haemes, they willl be happy about it. therefore we indeed are doing them a tremendous favor in this regard.
    at the same time, love of our fellow jew doesn't necesarily have to come at the cost of our own spiritual growth, and if non - religious living inour community can have an adverse effect on our ruchniyus (for several reasons)than we should avoid it (without getting in to the issue of what means should be used)

    getting back to the issue of our post - the same thing could be said perhaps- i don't know- maybe these people who are opposed to the high school for pure intentions - like preserving the tzuras hayeshivos.
    if so they are also trying to save otheres from making the mistake of going against gedoley yisroel as they see it and from mixing in limudey chol to their son's torah learning - which has plenty of sources of being an issue. perhaps these parents will come and thank them in the oilem haemes. (perhaps they are even thanking them in this world - depends on who you speak to)

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  22. Mr. Anon,

    Your analogy is flawed and also points to the heart of the problem.

    This is issue is NOT about boys doing something that is out of the bounds of normative halacha. This type of yeshiva is fully accepted by a wide range of significant rabbanim and falls 100% within the bounds of acceptable Jewish chinuch.

    By comparing it a non-religious high school you ARE exactly showing us that the critical element of Eliu V'Eilu is missing from a segment of the Chareidi world. I'm not saying you hold this way, but this is precisely the warped mentality of the fanatic Chareidim who have no tolerance for anything outside their ever narrowing orbit.

    And as I said before, what it really shows is an absurd level of insecurity with one's own derech and belief system.

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  23. menacem
    as i said in my post the example was to show a point.
    to say that it falls within normative halacha, is debatable. while you are right that there are Rabbanim who Mattired such a school, those that didn't also have a right to believe in their views even according to you. therefore they may act based on their views, and trying to debate or discuss the issue with those people that are opting to send to the high school, should not give them the title goons any more than you saying your opinion on the internet.
    also, in this case of Ramat beit shemesh, no Rav and eccspecially one that is anywhere near the stature of the signataries on the letter has come out publicly to mattir the opening of this school in ramat beit shemesh.

    as far as as eilu veilu and the chareidi world, there deffinately is an aspect of eilu veilu. the only question is where you draw the line between "Divrey Eloykim chayim" and megale panim batorah shelo kehalacha. everyone has their own line somewhere. (i am not saying that those that say you can have limudeyt chol are megakah panim however i am saying that eilu vaeilu doesn't always apply and one must know when to apply it and when not)
    as far as the insecurity issue, i think the other way around- those that are supporting the high school are threatened by the fact theat people are visiting prospective parents, because they are afraid - and rightfully so - that if these American families are exposed to the understanding of the israeli yeshiva world,which they have no connectionto, then the future of their enrollment is certainly in danger because emes is clearer then sheker

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  24. this discussion is funny. Mr. Anonymous, you take the cake. as if the Israeli yeshiva system is so great. It produces the most superficial learning, and the people running the chadorim and yeshiva ketanas are all askanim who have no concept of education and no interest. They use the schools as power bases for their askanus and who gives a hoot about the kids that are supposed to be learning something.

    The number of noshrim is astounding, and increasing more and more, and the fact that there are not more noshrim is a miracle.

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  25. Yf
    .
    While i
    t
    m

    ay be t
    rue
    th


    at there are menahalim that are nor interested in chinuch, there are definately many that do care about chinuch. The answer is not to open a different system but rather fix the system from within. If parents were more vocal about the leadership in the schools, you would be surprised at how much can be changed. Look around at the local rbs chadarim and the changes that have come around in the last few years. Things have deffinately improved.
    Also, what is the alternative to this
    syst
    em?
    If the s
    tand
    a
    rds
    a
    re l
    owe
    r t
    he
    n p

    erha
    ps
    ther
    e
    w
    oul
    d be

    l
    ess
    n
    os
    hri
    m bu
    t
    t
    he

    suc
    ces
    s

    stor
    I
    e
    s woul
    d b
    e lowe
    r. Like any investment, the higher the possinility of returns, the higer the possibility of losses are.
    Many of the noshrim are results of disfuctional family I
    ssues and there is not much that the chadarim can do about that. Ask those that deal with the noshrim and they will verify that fact.

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  26. you missed my point. my point wasn't to say that this system is better than that one or the other is better than these systems.

    My point was to say that for anybody to think that their system is the only way is pure gaiva. You yourself are using the words "if the standards would be lowered".

    Why is such a yeshiva lowering standards? because in addition to regular kodesh they also have a bit of chol?

    there is a certain sense that the people opposing the yeshiva (or any of the yeshivas of this style) are not really lshem shamayaim, but are just baalei gaiva who think it is my way or the highway. They think that about everything and if someone doesn't fit into the mold their is a problem. This is only one example of that but that is the way they expect everything to run - according to their definition of what is right and wrong.

    What makes it even worse is that many of (I think "all of", but I can't really know everybody who is involved, so I am willing to say "many of" instead of "all of") are all products of the yeshiva high school system or similar such systems, whether from America or from Europe. It is not "pure blood Israelis" running the opposition. Then you'd at least think they really think their system is better as this is the system they know was always here and some people are tryign to import a system from America so it must be fought.

    The people fighting it are themselves products of the system So they know the problems of it? perhaps, but they should also know that nobodies one system is more correct, or better, than another system. They should be more aware that such a system also has the ability to produce talmidei chachomim and kollel yungerleit that are serious about torah and mitzvos (it produced them after all!) and baalei batim who are koveia ittim, just as much as any other system.

    They don't have to embrace it, but for them to oppose it shows that they are simply baalei gaiva who believe it is my way or the highway.

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  27. Mr anon,

    Your attempt to turn around the insecurity issue is laughable. From my understanding we're not talking about simple "recruiting" here. I don't think anyone would have a problem if the Menahel of Yeshiva Ketana Y came by to tell a family how wonderful his school is. What seems to be happening falls more under the category of coercion or worse. When a community rav or others tell a family NOT to send their son to Yeshiva X then that's a different story and something that should not be tolerated.

    Further, the very fact that people are afraid to have the physical Yeshiva in the community tells us all we need to know. You'd think we were talking about an adult book store or worse, God forbid, a bowling alley the way some people are going apoplectic over this.

    What? Some nice Yeshiva Ketana bachur is going to get sucked into the vortex of this horribly illicit school and maybe, God forbid, become intelligent enough to string 3 sentences together?

    That my friend is insecurity. The fanatics in the Chareidi world are so fearful that they won't be able to control their flocks that they lash out in these irrational ways.

    As for Eilu V'eilu, well your answer about that and the very idea that you can say that a Yeshiva where boys learn 90% of the time is not "normative" (didn't say ideal, said normative) tells us all we need to know.

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  28. Mr. Anonymous-
    Your premise is that the parents of boys registered for the new yeshiva are simply clueless about the wonderful yeshiva ketana system. According to you, if only they were exposed firtshand to the joys of the YK system, they would be running to send their sons to a YK instead of the new school. That is categorically FALSE. There are boys coming whose own brothers attended Yeshiva ketana, and their parents have made a very INFORMED decision that it is NOT the right place for their sons. Nice try though.

    By the way,have you sent a son through the YK system personally? Like Rav Kornfeld, Rav Goldstein and Rav Perlstein, you obviously did not attend one yourself. So I wonder how you feel so comfortable wit the idea of pressuring parents to stick their kids in a place that they as the parents feel is not ideal for their son? Maybe you should consider that they won't be thanking you in the oilam ha'emes, as you would like to believe, but rather, YOU may be giving din v'cheshbon for giving an eitzah ra'ah. In the past, many boys were advised by no less than Rav Shach, (and one boy as recently as this year by Rav Kornfeld) to send their sons to Maarava. How can you be so sure that each and every boy should be pressured not to go, simply based on the fact that people want to preserve the tzuras hayeshivos? That wasn't enough of a reason for Rav Shach- what makes you so sure it will be a defense in the beis din shel maalah for people like you and your friends?

    By the way, your point about rabbanim not publicly supporting the yeshiva is not about the emes. Many very big "brand name" rabbanim in Eretz Yisrael are 100% behind this school, but have told the organizers they simply cannot say it publicly due to the kanoim and askanim who surround them. That is FACT. Ask the menahalim and rabbanim in RBS who really know the truth for confirmation.

    And lastly, if it's not about power and control and gaava on the part of certain local rabbanim, and it's just that they're so worried about the poor boys with misguided parents, how come they're not going house to house to stop parents from sending to Maarava next year? Why aren't they plastering pashkevilim about Maarava? Why are the organizers specifically being told- by the local Chareidi rabbanim, "Yes, we know there are boys that need this yeshiva- but not on my turf - do it in Bet Shemesh or somewhere else-not in RBS."? None of them have even bothered saying that it's bad or wrong or not appropriate for these kids- (since that would be foolish), simply that they don't want it in their territory. I don't know what is more pathetic- their attempts at intimidation, or your defense of it.

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  29. You're Kidding, right?June 08, 2010 5:38 PM

    Mr Anonymous

    Are you playing devil's advocate, or do you really believe the nonsense you write?

    Catriel's concern was that negative sales tactics (to put it mildly) or harrassment & intimidation (to call a spade a spade) have been used to put/shut DOWN and UNDERMINE a new school.

    A school which is entirely legitimate (halachik) in its aims, and meets undeniable needs in our community.

    These are the same unacceptable tactics which are used by extremists to take over the mikve on Dolev, to cover up many cases of child abuse in RBS, and to dissuade whole communities from giving to Lema'an Achai.

    Mr Anonymous - I'm sure you would denounce *those* behaviors. Right?

    So what's different about a campaign to methodically trash a new and important chinuch institution?

    Mr Anonymous - will you please tell us you've been kidding us along?

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  30. yf
    mixing limusey chol into torah, is at best lowering standards, if not worse.
    The Netziv left a tzavah saying that even though this issue was what caused his final illness, the one that he never recovered from, he has no regrets nor should his children regret this, because this issue is worthy to be moiser nafsho alav - mamash.
    this has been the manta of those who were considered the leaders of the yeshiva world, as it was transplanted in Eretz Yisael and continued on till our very day.
    (What happens in the united States is different historically being that the situation was once one in which there were no Yeshivas and a majority of frum jews went to public high schools 50 years ago. the mixture of tora and limudey chol is as such that torah was added to the limudey chol and that is better than no torah at all. the environment was never such, that the community would be able to have schools that are only limudey koydesh, although that today is starting to change in some circles. whereas in eretz yisrael there was no system at all back then and therefore a system of yeshivos without limudey chol was able to be opened)

    i don't know why you feel that there is a gaava issue at hand. this is not a new fight and it has been waged several times. if you notice, there are no rabbanim fighting mizrachi institutions because that is recognized today as a different stream and therefore irelevant to the oilam hayeshivos(the chareidi ones i mean).
    however, for some people to come from America and start trying to change things and still call themselves a yeshiva or a chareidi mosaad, is the epitomy of gaavah, saying i, who has nowhere near the understanding of torah as the gedoley hador do, can determine that this is an okay thing to do, despite five of the leading manhigey hador signing on to a letter saying that it shouldn't be done.
    sometimes people that are bigger are able to understand that if you don't take the highway but rather an alternative road which doesn't have as much traffic and looks perhaps more appealing, you might not arrive at your destination because the road leads somewhere else (vehamayven yavin)

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  31. menachem,
    coercion is a very loose term.
    if a community rav sees that one of his congregants are erring and doesn't say anything, then he is neglecting his responsibility. i don't believe there were any threats going around or ultimatums, rather normal discussions and normal rules of persuasion through civil conversation - not quite coercion.

    it is clear that there is a difference between whether the high school is in the neighborhood or not. being locally gives it a higher profile. i don't believe the right term would be 'afraid" to have the school in the neighborhood, but rather understand that being local makes it more of a legitimate institution. to have a high school and call it a chareydi yyeshiva despite the fact that the leading leaders of the oilam hayeshiva say not to open it, is a paradox. had it been opened in Rbs there would be many people who are unkowledgable in this field and would think it is a valid option.
    this is not a fear issue but rather an issue of how the torah is supposed to be learnt, based on the understanding of our manhigey hador.

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  32. concerned
    just because older sons learnt in yeshiva ketana doesn't make it an informed decision. perhaps the older sons wanted to go with his friends and the younger wants to go with his friends. not knowing that there is a big deal either way would allow the same result.
    perhaps, although this father may know about what goes on in yeshivas, he might not be knowledgable as to the extent that gedoley yisrael were against limudey chol, ecspecialy coming from America. by people visiting him and explaining to him the different issues from a perspective that he hasn't yet heard, he may thus be enlightened.

    perhaps rav shach told some boys to go to maarava (but even then one must know the situation, and what the alternatives were and whether they would have listened had he told them not to go to maarava)but this case is deffinately different, as this involves founding a new school. the ramifications are completely different than once a school is established and somebody is just another boy going there, not a founder.

    if thesrabbanim are backing the school how come no body has said their name. why is that they are afraid? no one is threatening them, this is not a yerushalmi machlokes?

    again as far as maarava goes, as i said it is not a new institution. he had his letters put out against him, and he also opened away from the chareydi community.
    and every year for your information, there is efforts to convince these boys not to go to maarava, they are just not as high profile because the public interest is different.
    in fact i was told that several of the top bochurim in a local yeshiva ketana had planned in going to maarava and were convinced otherwise.
    so you see, as a side point, that just because a thirteen year old thins je needs limudey chol, he is not always right

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  33. you're kidding...
    sorry. no i am not.
    i believe that Catriel's claims of harassment and intimidation is blown out of proportion. there was no intimidation or harassment as far as i was able to verify, but rather peaceful and friendly meetings.
    Catriel shoulld speak to the parents directtly if he is concerneed. there aren't too many to begin with that are planning on sending to this high school.

    i don't what the comparison to the mikva or child abuse or lemaan achay is. if you just want to vent then go ahead. if you don't think that having a high school is a bad thing then you are disagreeing on the actual toopic and the methods are irrelevant because no method will be satisfiable for you.

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  34. Mr. Anonymous-

    Your Netziv comment is a total red herring. Here are the facts: The Netziv was being forced by a Communist non-Jewish government to adopt the curriculum that they wanted to impose on his talmidim- who were a highly selective group of ilyushe yeshiva bachurim. Keep in mind that in those years, only a fraction of a percent of boys were actually learning in yeshiva during their teenage years. Why pretend that there was a mesorah of any kind of standard high school schooling for all frum boys in Poland or Russia? There simply was no such thing. Were there a few small-medium sized yeshivos? Yes, but out of the millions of Jews in Poland, all the secondary yeshivos put together didn't even have as many talmidim as there are in Mir Yerushalayim alone.

    To compare the situation with the Netziv to a case in which parents are choosing a high school for their sons, where they will be taught by frum teachers math, English and Hebrew- during bein hasedarim, is simply idiocy.

    I'm sure I'm not the only one reading your comments who is dying to know which yeshiva high school (or public school) you attended that enabled you to "reach your destination" so well. Please let us know -the suspense is killing us.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Try to follow thisJune 08, 2010 9:43 PM

    Mr. Anonymous-
    Lets's take it real slow this time.

    A- We know that Rav Shach recognized that SOME boys need a place like Maarava.

    B- Maarava can only accomodate 35 out of 200 applicants for ninth grade.

    C- There are many boys who need this type of education but cannot get into Maarava.

    D- THEREFORE another similar instistution needs to be opened.

    E- It's illogical to say it's okay for some boys to go to Maarava, but automatically the ones who can't get in or can't afford it, must be punished and forced to go to a place where they are less likely to be matzliach (YK).

    Why is that so hard for you to wrap your mind around?

    ReplyDelete
  36. Sick and tiredJune 08, 2010 9:52 PM

    Mr Anonymous-
    The organizers have agreed to go to Bet Shemesh. Is that a Chareidi town according to you? Why won't they leave them alone now?

    ReplyDelete
  37. concerned,
    i think you missed my point (actually i am starting to think that no one here is willing to debate this openmindedly at all)
    the circumstances may have been different, but the main issue in the Netziv's opinion, based on his tzavah was the mixing of kodesh vchol. he even says there that there is a remez in the torah where it says lehavdil bain hakodesh oovayn hachol.
    torah hasn't changed, just as then there was a problem mixing kodesh and chol so too now there is a problem.
    as far as my background is concerned, following along my tradition of bein anonymous.rbs, i can only say that i went to an "anonymous" high school. (LOL)
    although, i was blessed to reach my destination, it most certainly was a bumpy ride and i do wish that i had listened to that yeshiva bochur that tried convincing me to go to a more yeshivisha palce as i remember to this day the conversation.
    (actually by virtue of the fact that i am spending time on the internet, one may say that i never actually reached the deatination, which would only strengthen my point.)

    ReplyDelete
  38. try to follow this,
    unfortunately i don't know what it means to wrap my mind around something.
    i was tought that the mind must be solid and not wishy washy. only wishy washy minds can be bent.
    anyways, as far as your issue (now that we got past the personal attacks) do you not see the absurdity of trying to prove taht Rav Shach would tell us to open this Yeshiva? he was the one that fought against opening maarava in the first place.he certainly would have fought against this one too.

    as far as your point, i do not beleive taht Rav shach told 200 boys a year to go to maarava.

    maybe one or two a year. maybe just maybe,

    also what is it about maarava education that these boys need? that itself is a farce. Rabbi Chait only take the best 50 applicants and that most certainly are the brightest boys that applied. i find it hard to believe that specifically these boys wouldn't be able to handle a regular yeshiva curriculum. eccspecially since everyone claims that they learn just as much there and just add a little limudey chol bain hasedarim. so basically you guys are saying that there are boys that can only handke a full yeshiva curriculum with extra limudey chol and if they just has a bein hasedarim to relax, they would go berzerk and off the derech.
    there are plenty of yeshivos around. thousands and thousands of boys go into yeshiva ketanahs every year. not one yeshiva can be found that caters to these boys needs. give me a break - let;s call the spade the spade.

    sick and tired,
    my comments were in response to those that were askking what is wrong with having it in RBS.
    as far as leaving them alone, i don't know that any compromise was signedn by the people against the school that would obligate them to stop being against it as Rafi ascertains.

    ReplyDelete
  39. but rather understand that being local makes it more of a legitimate institution. to have a high school and call it a chareydi yyeshiva despite the fact that the leading leaders of the oilam hayeshiva say not to open it, is a paradox. had it been opened in Rbs there would be many people who are unkowledgable in this field and would think it is a valid option.
    this is not a fear issue but rather an issue of how the torah is supposed to be learnt, based on the understanding of our manhigey hador.


    There are so many things wrong with this I don't know here to begin.

    Really, if Maarava where in RBS it would be MORE "legitimate". As it is they are so legitimate that they must turn away 75% of the boys who apply.

    Likewise, having the Yeshiva a 5 min drive down the hill is going to make it "less legitimate". How silly. It's not like we live in Europe and you have to go by horse for 5 days to reach the next shtetel.

    Actually, all the fuss these fanatics are making is actually lending more legitimacy than if it were smack in the middle of the Dolev circle. Talk about counterproductive.

    So given that location is really quite unrelated to "legitimacy" it brings us back to the fear and control issues. You can say all you want to that it's no about fear, but that won't make the truth go away. Everything the fanatic Chareidim do is out of fear. Fear of the outside world, fear of secular knowledge, fear of seduction, fear of knowledge, but most of all fear of losing control.

    You comment about people be "unknowledgeable in this field" is nasty and condescending, and quite typical of an elitist Chareidi mentality. "You're to stupid to figure out what's best for your kid so we'll tell you."

    RBS A is not a closed Chereidi ghetto. There are a broad range of people with a range of hashkafot. And there hashkafot are based on range of mesoras from a range of gedolim. You can scream all you want to about "Daas Torah" but there is no ONE Daas Torah, not even in the Chareidi world.

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  40. the angelo wayJune 09, 2010 1:33 AM

    the masses are coming from over seas, and this is what they demand..

    you just cant stop a tsuanmi.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Those who say they are protesting "l'shem shamayim" should be busy trying to convince EVERYONE to not have secular education (including students going to modern Orthodox, chiloni, Maarava, and the new school, etc.) The proof that this is politics is that they don't mind at all to see boys getting no Jewish education, or lots of limudei chol, they just don't want competition for their OWN schools.
    What the "Americans" have imported is the idea of MYOB. Send to whatever schools you want, and let everyone else do what they want, especially the people who themselves went to this kind of high school and think they turned out fine. And I write "American" in quotes because the new school had tons of applicants from Israeli kids and Maarava currently has plenty of Israeli boys. There are plenty of boys in the Ayalon park who need saving, a bunch of nice boys from nice families who want to learn a little math so they maybe can (Chas v'shalom) make parnossa some day don't need anybody's advice, they have their own brains and ask their own rabbis.
    I know one of the families that had people coming and telling them not to send - these goons have NEVER met the boy in question and have NO idea what kind of education he needs, and nobody asked for their help.
    The whole community should donate money to support the new school.

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  42. sane,
    how do you reconcile the idea of MYOB and the idea of kol yisrael areivim zeh lazeh?

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  43. what a dumb question. if someone is hurting someone else, ie child abuse, or not keeping the basics - Shabbat etc., you should report/try to influence them. Otherwise, MYOB!

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  44. What a dumb answer.
    Your Torah is much shorter than mine.
    What do you guys do the extra shabbosim?
    Go on vacation?
    I'm sorry but you don't own the torah. You can't just pick and choose where you want it to apply. Arvus refer to all 613 mitzvohs.

    ReplyDelete

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