3 cheers for Bet Shemesh's democracy! In Rehovot they didn't manage to get the incumbent to come to the debate (OK,actually symposium)so only the four guys who want to depose him (separately, of course, so not much chance of succeeding) showed up. Ugh.
small question: Where are the women? (or are those the empty chairs in the first picuture?)

I am very concerned with Abutbul's attitude towards the kanoim. He basically said the whole issue is exaggerated and nothing that can't be fixed with some old fashioned TLC. That is a VERY naive and scary position. living on the border between sheinfeld and Recido on one side and the Kiriyah on the other I know the issue is no exaggeration and can only be dealt with in a forceful way (if only the police would help...)

So what if Abutbol makes promises that he can't keep. It still shows that he has a vision that he is striving for. What is Shalom's vision other than stopping the chareidim (as he said so eloquently at the end of the debate)?
What has Shalom shown that he will try to accomplish that Abutbol can't/won't?
Also as a former member of the Vaad Hasehecunah, (remember the good old days?) why wouldn't a separate Minhelet get you very excited? That seems to be a very profound difference between Shalom and Moshe probably the biggest difference when it comes to RBS A.
That deffinately is a campaign promise which shouldn't be too hard to pull through on.

To Gil,
it is hard to force our current opinions and the current state of events on a future mayor regardless of who it will be.
Dani took a very hard line against all the chareidim and they felt that they had to fight for everything.
If the future mayor deals with commonsence and they feel that their needs are taken care of they won't have to resort to violence (hopefully)
Small example: If Vaknin would have closed Nahar Hayarden on Shabbos in the early days (having people go through route 10 or building that bypass road which was never built) alot of bad blood and hard feelings would have been avoided and we might have had a totally different atmosphere in the city. granted that some people might have been inconvenienced and annoyed about having to drive all the way around, but politically it would have been a much better route.

risa - the womens section was not full, and I did not take a picture of it. the empty chairs are from before the debate started. I took a pic of the empty room.

gil - I agree, that is a concern I have with abutbol as well. It is a big issue, but I do not think though that it is really the biggest issue in Bet Shemesh. On that actually Vaknin might have the goods. As he said to me, it is generally quiet, with flare-ups every now and then. It takes a lot of work and maintenance to keep things quiet. If the problem gets ignored, things will likely get worse.

anonymous - there is nothing wrong with dreaming, and I too hope we can achieve building a hospital. There is a difference though between dreaming about something and putting it in as a campaign promise in your platform. A dose of reality is also important.

But again, overall I think Abutbol, if he will win, will also be a fine mayor. I was more impressed with him tonight than I originally expected to be.

The minhelet can be a good thing. The vaad shchuna way back then was a waste of time, and it is likely the minhelet will be too. the vaad never had power or responsibility. We might have been instrumental in getting street signs put up in RBS (that is the only thing I remember we worked on that had any success, though I do not remember that it was specifically us who effected that), but most of the times it was meetings that never led to anything.

Those days are behind me. Minhelets and vad shchunas need more than lip service. It requires people who are crazy and want to dedicate every last minute of their free time to chasing after street cleaners, and to not get paid for it.
I am skeptical that people will really want to, and be willing to put out the effort to, make such a thing successful. My attitude right now on that is I am voting you in power so you can chase after the street cleaners, not so you can tell me to chase after the street cleaners.

I think that a minhelet is run by people that are payed and is sort of a sub-city hall. although I might be wrong.

Abutbol is making campaign promises hat simply cannot be kept. Take the hospital for example. Ashdod has been fighting for years and still has no hospital. There isn't a snowball's chance in hell that Bet Shemesh will get a hospital in the next ten years.

The other very good point Lerner made was about money. Abutbol said there is money for everything in the city. That scares me because there isn't money. The tax base is shrinking as more and more people get exemptions and the financial climate is getting worse. Lerner's answer was much more realistic.

I believe that Abutbol showed last night that he is a politician and gave answers that would make a politician proud. Shalom Lerner was not and gave straight answers that were not always politically correct.

While I will admit that Abutbol is a more polished speaker his attitude concerns me.

He mentioned several times about all of the positions that he held in city hall over the past 15 years. Many of those postions were ones of power and influence yet...he didn't mention even one instance where he made a difference.

What did he do for RBSA over these years?

Shalom who became Deputy Mayor just 2 and 1/2 years ago opened up a line of communication for RBSA as soon as he took the postition.

Shalom has worked for the chinuch of kids of RBSA, the needy of RBSA, the youth of RBSA and has attracted foreign investors.

Moshe Abutbol did not have RBSA on his radar until this election. Even with the election he didn't zero in here until he saw the strong support Shalom had garnered.

Moshe Abutbol spent 15 years as a political talmid of Dani Vanknin...and he learned well.

>>While I will admit that Abutbol is a more polished speaker his attitude concerns me.<<

I agree with this commnet. I felt that Abutbul spent a good part of the evening thinking of a good "shtuch" - trying to get the funny one liners to make Shalom look bad. He played the crowd very well (they loved him - did you see them dancing with him at the end singing the moishy, moishy abutbul song?) but his sarcastic tone i felt troublesome.

Abutbul is from Shas and Shas is very good at politics. However, that doesn't mean he will be good at governing.

I think Lerner's last point, that Abutbul is basically a continuation Of Vaknin is very true. I think it will be the same politics, protektzia, etc. the difference being it will be run by Shas.

from what I could tell, Abutbols supporters are more "solidly" with him. I saw 3 crowds last night. A few hard core Lerner supporters, many open minded Lerner supporters who wanted to see the differences and were remaining open minded, and many hard core Abutbol supporters.

Don't forget, these supporters of Abutbol are people who signed on late, because the rabbonim told them to. They are not natural supporters of Abutbol, and they are not people who liked him early on and signed with him because they think he is great.

They signed with him because the rabbonim said to, and because of that their opinion does not matter. They will fight for abutbol. They came to make sure Abutbol got some cheers, and some singing at the end, and the like.

When Abutbol gave the zinger to lerner about Hakshiva, I would ahve liked to see Lerner retort that after he spent 15 years in Al Hammayan working with Noar Nosheir yet there is still a problem, so obviously he is no good.

Abutbul's retort about Hakshiva was a low blow. Everyone knows that those kind of problems will never go away.

You could ask the same question about Shas. Shas has been representing the poor since it was founded and yet there are more poor people then ever.