Nov 11, 2008

is Rav Steinman against TOV?

The Degel people brought Rav Steinman yesterday, under great fanfare to speak out against TOV.
If you read the text below, he speaks out against people who are not completely shomer torah and mitzvos, and don't listen to the rabbonim. If you read the text below, the transcript of what he said yesterday, you will see nowhere any mention of TOV itself.

If he was so upset about TOV that he felt he had to come to Bet Shemesh to dispel any rumors that he is ok with them, and dissuade people from supporting them, why did he leave everything only implied? Why did he not mention them explicitly?

Another thing that disturbs me is the way he implies that there is only one way to do things. Whatever happened to minhag? Whatever happened to machlokes poskim and people following their ravs psak? An example is that he discusses the use of Mayim Achronim. Rav Steinman says that shulchan aruch paskens you have to do mayim achronim, so anybody who does not is making a chillul hashem, even though perhaps it is not such a serious thing.

I don't do mayim achronim because of my minhag. So does that mean I am making a chillul hashem and straying from the path every time I bentch?

Anyway, if you read the text you will see Rav Steinman says that you have to vote for someone who does the mitzvos without leniency, and for sure not for a secular Jew. Only vote for those who do things according to the Torah.

One can even look at this as an endorsement of TOV!

Add to this the following audio recording of a meeting the heads of TOV had with Rav Steinman last week. They went to Rav Steinman because they knew he was against them because he had been told they do not listen to rabbonnim. They went and told him they do listen to rabbonim, and he said then that it is ok.

So it is really a matter of who tells him what. if the Degel people tell him that they do not listen, so he says if they dont listen you cannot vote for them. If TOV people tell him they do listen, then he says it is ok...


  1. It is not clear why local Gimmel activists have "put all their cards" on one gadol. There are many gedolim out there including Rav Elyashiv, Rav Wozner, Rav Lichtenstein.

    Those who follow daas torah must realize that there is more than one daas torah.

  2. He said that if someone makes a Miflaga of people not washing mayim acharonim THAT is a chillul hashem,
    that is his point that there maybe kulas that people could rely on but making a party of it would be a chillul Hashem,
    read it again

  3. This proves that you can not force a man to see that which he doesnt want to see. Let me ask you, if he would have said dont vote Tov, would that have stopped you from voting Tov? Im sure you, or whoever wanted, would find a different excuse. I know. Because I spoke to someone last night who told me that no matter what the rosh yeshiva or anyone says, I wont listen since they dont really know.

    *** He who wants to follow daas torah knows what the rosh yeshivas kavana was ***

    However, even in what you claim you did see, you didnt get it. You missed the boat.
    He did not say following a kula is wrong or a chillul hashem. He said basing a party on a kula which goes against the Shulcham Aruch - THAT is a chillul hashem. What one person does - in this regard - is NOT what he called a chillul hashem.

    There are many interpretations as to which kula tov has v'ein kahn mekomo.

    Gimmel is not putting all their cards into RAYLS, he is just the oen who came to speak yesterday. He also happens to be the Gadol who is most involved with the political scene.

    However, one must admit the lineup of Gedolim instructing people to vote gimmel is pretty impressive (unless youre a Gerrer chassid, and if you are, please name another gerrer minhag that you have). Rav Elyashiv. rav chaim kanievsky, rav michel yehuda, rav scheinberg etc.

    When he refers to having a miflaga of beinonim - do not delude yourself into thinking that he means anyone other than people who "have had enough" of the chareidi pressures and the chareidi system of full time learning as the ideal. A party of those who are against full time learning -- thats exactly who he is against. And I am not saying thats what all of Tov stands for, though I am not sure. But, as i understand the Israeli faction of tov does stand for EXACTLY that.

    I am not referring to the American temimim who have been taken for a ride by the Israeli Tovniks who need their help to get seats. I am not talking about the American tovniks who I am sure did not know from the beginning that they would cause such agmas nefesh to the Gadol HaDor. I am talking about the israelis, who no doubt knew what would happen.

    Now regarding the audio clip with tov and the rosh yeshiva, of course if they listen to the rabbonim, he would say its OK. But do they listen to the rabbonim? The rabbonim of Bet shemesh have spoken. They are not listening. They claim they have rabbonim, but are these rabbonim big enough in statute to stand up against RMG, REK, RSZP, RNK, Rav Dinkel etc etc who have said that Tov's place is not in bet shemesh? And if the answer is yes, when do we get to meet these top tier talmidei chachamim? When are their hours for shailos and talking in learning? Do thay have shuls in which they give drashos? or will it forever remeain a "secret" rabbi that they listen to?

  4. Rafi, you apparently don't know how to read. If you would have wanted to, you could have read that he is against TOV... ;-)

    On a more serious note; The issue is that TOV is being portrayed as being Chareidi "light" (I hate that term), which I doubt is the case.

    TOV should have come out and described themselves as Poalei Aguda - which was the original Agudas Yisroel Working class - not one iota less frum than Agudas Yisroel, just that they work for a living (how wierd...).
    (BTW - the original founder of Poalei Agudah back in Europe was a gerrer Chosid...).
    True, some people would come out against them even so, but with a little good will - they could live peacefully side by side with gimel.

  5. so,
    according to Rav Steinman everyone should vote Shalom Lerner and for Beyachad!!!

  6. Well said Rafi, I still don't understand why you didn't run for mayor yourself, but We (if we stick around in BS that long) hope to see you on the ballot next time around.
    Today they are announcing that voting for G is a kiddish Hashem, can anyone shed some light on the connection?
    "kichol asher yorucha" Thank G-d I had a good zionist upbring, so I know a little chumash (we also study the bible even with some commentary) the pasuk is referring to listening to the Sanhedrin, Beis Din HaGadol. Anyone shed some light on that? and why is the paper with pasukim being thrown on the floor? Some of these papers are sheymos, which bring the next topic
    To the Green People-next time try putting pressure on the candidates not to kill so many trees! This paper trail and litter is insane! Who is going to clean it up? Danyy's men? I think not they are all going on (what we hope) will be their last vacation till MA or SL take over.

  7. so if you're not supposed to vote for soemone who is not shomer torah and mitzvos then how can they vote for someone who has made deals with almost every non-religious party in the city?

  8. HaRav Malinowitz is himself a gadol so Tov and Lerner people have a gadol.

    There are MANY gedolim out there so rattling off a list of gedolim who MIGHT (with emphasis on MIGHT) does not make a difference.

    Why can't the gimmel abutbul crowd get used to the idea that tthere is more than one gadol out there.

  9. One of the gedolei hador HaRav Aharon Lichtenstein has not told anybody that they must vote for Gimmel or Abutbul. Therefore, frum Jews can feel totally fine voting for Lerner and Tov.

  10. Rafi-
    Please do something about your wonderful site beign hijacked by this nuisance who dominates every post with redundant comments under multiple aliases.
    HINT: Six posts in a row, all spaced two minutes apart, from "Charles", "Yechezkel", "Rina" and "RBS Chareidi for Lerner", might be the same pathetic loser trying to get himself noticed

  11. To the "chareidi" anon who said "There are many interpretations as to which kula tov has v'ein kahn mekomo."

    why ein kahn mekomo? i would think this is exactly the place. I am truly curious what this kula is. Many times when people use the phrase "ein kahn mekomo", it's to hide the fact that they have no idea. So assuming you are for real, please elaborate (and let me know also if you have concrete proof or are just bypassing judging le'caf zchus)
    You have 40 minutes to resond, or else i'm voting TOV :-)

  12. Ungar said... "Those who follow daas torah must realize that there is more than one daas torah."

    Exactly!! and why is the Gerrer Rebbe's daas torah not worthy of consideration? because gimmel asks R.Shteinmen thats why.
    btw, did gimmel get daas torah to approve their shmutz campaign. that was a chillul hashem if you ask me.

  13. All evidence which has been proffered by the Abutbul-Gimmel people has related to Rav Shteinmann. Where is the evidence that gedolim such as Rav Lichtenstein,Rav Elyashiv, Rav Lior, Rav Wozner feel the same way even if we assume that R' Shteinmann really feels that one must vote Gimmel?

  14. rafi,

    why does some fanatic keep on insinuating that apparently authentic postings are those of a "loser"

  15. blogger does not give me the ability to cotrol it at that level. I can block comments for all, for none or via moderation, allow or disallow anonymous, only google users, etc.

    Nothing that most of my anon commenters will be happy about. Elections are almost over, so even if it is "spam" (which I am not sure it is), it will be over soon...

  16. "Where is the evidence that gedolim such as Rav Lichtenstein,Rav Elyashiv, Rav Lior, Rav Wozner feel the same way ... "

    Rav Elyashiv is on all the signs. I dont know what else you want regarding him.

    Regarding the others, they have opinions. if you call yoursely a follower of those (RAL for mizrachnikim RSW for shevet halevi chassidim and rav lior for whichever world he comes from) - then you are right. Same thing if you are a ger chasid and the rebbe said lerner.

    However, the TOV people claim to be litvishe. They claim to have an acceptable litvishe mehalech. When the leader of the litvishe world comes out against you, you can say you have mizrachi rabbis or chassidishe rebbes all you want, but you are taking yourselves out of the litvishe torah world. Is that what you want to do? Moreover, its not a one man show. rav Elyashiv as stated above, rav chaim kanievsky, rav sheinberg, rav michel yehudah lefkovitz ALL have said to vote gimmel and abutpol.

  17. The kiddush hashem is being mevatel your thought process for the understanding that the gedolei yosroel know more.

    The kiddush hashem is realizing that i dont know everything, and i dont know all the cheshbonos. but i WILL trust in the gedolei yisroel.

    The kiddush hashem is following daas torah, k'chol asher yorucha, following yiftach b'doro k'shmuel b'doro.

  18. can someone tell me when it became assur to think? gedolay yisroel didn't used to tell everyone how to vote, where to go to school, what clothing to wear etc. this chassidish influence on the litvish is bizzare! tell me who did rav moshe zt"l order people to vote for in the 1976 u.s. presidential election? did rav aron kotler zt"l ever say you would be mechalel shem shomayim by using your brain? when you have a shailoh - then ask, if you want to talk in learning - then talk to the gedolim.
    you are pogaya in the kavod of any talmid chacham to waste his time asking questions you should be able to answer yourself!

  19. RBS Power-
    Just for the record, would you please deny that you are also posting as "RBS Yid", "Spencer", "Dovid" etc...
    When you deny that, this fanatic will take you at your word and be quiet

  20. Why do certain haredim insist on speaking of the "litvishe" world, this world and another world. Some of us have gedolim such as HaRav Malinowitz who we go by and yes he is litvishe. You are generalizing by dividing everything up into "worlds." There are different rabbis, there are different gedolim with different opinions who-yes, believe it or not-belong to the same world.

  21. rbs power=rbs power

  22. Not according to RBS Power's url trail...

  23. Fanatic,stop your nonsense.
    RBS Power=RBS Power

  24. anonymous has been rather quiet regarding the challenge to describe which kula he is referring to. Quiet = losing credibility

  25. the problem with tov is that eli friedman is a singer. based on the gemara in the first perek of gittin - eli must be relying on kulos in order to sing (with or without music). and not only that - but he is machti es ha rabim, as we saw in the gimmel poster that they listen to his music (even though they adhere to the words of the gedolim). and that is why tov must be banished.

  26. Tov's showing today will go down in haredi history as the day that haredim woke up and started to try to abandon insanity which reigns in our midst. B'Ezrat Hashem Gimmel will be put out of business by Tov in the national elections as well.

  27. Thank you "David"! But does "Chana" agree with you?

  28. Let's Bring MoshiachNovember 11, 2008 6:16 PM

    David, i think you mean well, but it is your type of comments that is fueling this whole anti-TOV rederick.
    TOV is not trying to replace gimmel, it's trying to supplement gimmel, providing an accepting environment for those that don't feel comfortable in and/or are excluded from camp gimmel.
    It's about putting insignificant differences aside and realizing that we are all Jews who want to serve Hashem. Just not everyone agrees the exact way to do so.
    Once we realize that, all our other differences are not as important

  29. Let's Bring Moshiach: Well said.

  30. We really do need ahavas yisrael. Gimmel is great, Tov is terrific!

  31. If you think for one minute that the Rabbis wheeled out in favour of Gimmel know or care one little bit about municipal issues like parks, street cleaning, taxes, planning, transport then you are deluding yourself.

    They want your money for their institutions.

    Think for yourself what you want your neighberhood to look like, and vote accordingly.

  32. Tov is a wonderful symptom of change. B'Ezras Hashem soon there will be an end to discrimination against dati leumi gedolim and they will be respected as charedi gedolim are.

  33. Does anyone know where we can get election results late tonight or tomorrow morning?

  34. Rafi-if you hear something can you post right away? rafi-we're counting on you

  35. ananotheranonymousNovember 11, 2008 9:13 PM

    anonymous at 5:18 wow that's an interesting drasha about singers being chilulei Hashem.

    my interpretation was a bit different:

    party that isn't kulo Torah = Tov because they want to "send a message" to Gimmel leadership (probably an unfortunate comment in retrospect)

    voting for a chiloni = Vaknin

    someone who builds a life of kulas = Shalom Lerner who wears a kipa sruga (sic on the charedi misinterpretation of application of kula, halacha, chumra etc - I've been given quite a few stringent piskei din from Rav Shachter shlita who I guess they'd also call dati leumi)

    Rav Shteinman didn't specify any of the parties or people not to vote for because it wasn't relevant. He said who to vote for, and explained in general the problems with some of the more popular alternatives. This wasn't time to attack Tov itself (and maybe it never will be).

  36. "The kiddush hashem is being mevatel your thought process for the understanding that the gedolei yosroel know more.

    The kiddush hashem is realizing that i dont know everything, and i dont know all the cheshbonos. but i WILL trust in the gedolei yisroel.

    The kiddush hashem is following daas torah, k'chol asher yorucha, following yiftach b'doro k'shmuel b'doro."

    Not in the Judaism I practice.

  37. This has been an educational experience-I think that some of us who would have otherwise felt the need to vote for gimmel because of daas torah now understand.

    Thank you Rav Malinowitz!

    Thank you Rafi!

  38. The kiddush hashem is following daas torah, k'chol asher yorucha, following yiftach b'doro k'shmuel b'doro."

    Groan. Not this drivel again. Why can't people who proclaim themselves to be speaking in the name of Torah actually learn some Torah and see how the Rishonim and Acharonim explain this concept? What are they, Karaites?!

  39. Tov is Metzuyan!

  40. who won the election-anyone know?

  41. Looks like abutpol

  42. so, did ur guy Shalom Lerner win??

  43. Results are in. Moshe Abutbol won with 43%. According to polls in Temura, Shalom would have had an extra 10% had Vaknin backed out. Kol HaKavod to the Lerner campaign - they slung no mud and kept within more rules against litter and legal postings than anyone else. May that be a blessing to the city.


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