After the meeting was over, the Mayor handed the three representatives of Býachad - Shalom Lerner, Jackie Edry, and Ilana Yarchi - letters firing them from their positions within the coalition. They no longer have responsibilities over the various departments which they headed before and they are in the opposition. It seems that a private deal was made with Eli Friedman to join the coalition and have control over things if he voted with the Mayor tonight. Richard Peres voted against the Mayor but remains in the coalition. Richard had promised that if Býachad is fired then he will join the opposition. We'll see if that happens.

"ואכן לאחר שיצאו המכרזים, בתוך הכנס של הקבלנים בצורה ברברית שלא מקובלת בשום ציבור, וגם לאחר מכן כשהגיע השר, גם הפגינו והצטרפו גם כן לאופוזיציה בכל מיני יוזמות ומפגשים אישיים אל תוך הלילה. בליל הושענה רבה כשאנחנו צריכים להתפלל על הגורל שלנו הם יושבים ומתכננים עלינו כל מיני תוכניות, אז הגיע הזמן שעכשיו אחרי ההצבעה הזאת שהם הצביעו נגדינו, באופן די ברור הגיע הזמן להוציא אותם לאופוזיציה ששם אולי יעשו את החשבון נפש כמה הם מזיקים לציבור שלהם בזה שהם מתנגדים ומתנגחים בציבור החרדי".

http://www.bhol.co.il/news_read.asp?id=13243&cat_id=1

Some guy swinging his payot and balancing a cup of Coke in his hand while pushing dati-leumi defenders kept harassing police who asked him to behave decently. He kept yelling that they're worse to haredim today than "the criminals in Germany were to my people. You pick on me because I am haredi!" He didn't say the "N" word to avoid arrest. But it was another effort to antagonize non-haredim with horrific, undeserved accusations. Officers escorted the hollerer outdoors as he kept berating them for being "worse than the Germans." Equating non-violent escort outside to wholesale slaughter, unprecedented torture and genocide is one sick mind on stage. This fool and the mayor tried hard to create ANGER, chaos and confusing distractions with undeserved analogies. BULLIES IN BLACK. I was embarrassed to be Jewish as chiloni Israelis berated the hostile haredim for trying to force a way of dress, behavior and education on them. Hareidm were trying hard to start fistfights and it was a miracle that the fully armed police presence prevented that from happening.

The mayor's statement at the meeting is in sharp contradistinction to the swell guy being portrayed in TOV's previous entry in this blog.

He really doesn't sound like the type of guy who wants to, "make sure he does a better job communicating and getting his message across."

That is, of course, unless this IS the message he wants to get across.

I really dont think the mayor is a bad guy with evil intentions of taking over the city. I just dont think he has the ability to lead the city and push his derech of peacefulness. I think he is lead by others, and it is out of his control.

EVETY chareidi I know feels that there is a tremendous amount of anti-chareidism out there in the country in general, and in BS in specific, and in BS, with the DL.

Now, you will say its the chareidims fault since there are some chareidim that start up.

And you know what -- SO WHAT?

What does that have to do with every other chareidi that doesnt start up? Were all sick and tired of being compared to the Rav Arleh guys. We have nothing to do with them either. We just respect them and their wishes enough to get along.

The chareidim sense that there is an active fight to make RBS3 "not chareidi" - we dont care what it IS, as long as its not THEM. Thats rishus.

The chareidim just want a place to live and the woderful medina is not helping them anywhere else, so they want RBS3 avail to them to live there.

See the differnce?

Youll tell me the DL also want RBS3 DL? I dont believe you. If it would be all secular, they wouldnt care. As long as its not chareidi.

Do they care that there is not a pressing need for RBS3 to be DL like there is for it to be chareidi? no. But they dont care. as long as its not chareidi.


True or not? Thats up to you to decide. But that is the feeling people have.

Anon756 - Your analysis is totally incorrect.The problem the DL (and the rest of the country for that matter) have with the Charedim is the violent behavior. While it may be true that it is a small group that behave that way - very few will actually speak up and say - this is not representing Torah & violence against Jews is out and out ASSUR! If there would be a major change in the Charedi MO when they don't like something (e.g. peaceful protests, letter writting campaigns, public debates, op-eds in the newspapers) then most of this animosity would go away (except for the die-hard chiloni - they hate all of us equally).

EVERY Arab I know feels that there is a tremendous amount of anti-Arab sentiment out there in the country in general, and in shtachim in specific, and in shtachim, with the Jews.

Now, you will say its the Arabs fault since there are some Arabs that start up.

And you know what -- SO WHAT?

What does that have to do with every other Arab that doesnt start up? Were all sick and tired of being compared to the Hamas guys. We have nothing to do with them either. We just respect them and their wishes enough to get along.

The Arabs sense that there is an active fight to make Israel "not Arab" - we dont care what it IS, as long as its not THEM. Thats rishus.

The Arabs just want a place to live and the woderful medina is not helping them anywhere else, so they want shtachim avail to them to live there.

See the differnce?

Youll tell me the Jews also want shtachim Jewish? I dont believe you. If it would be all Christian, they wouldnt care. As long as its not Arab.

Do they care that there is not a pressing need for shtachim to be Jewish like there is for it to be Arab? no. But they dont care. as long as its not Arab.


True or not? Thats up to you to decide. But that is the feeling people have.

Anon 10:55 - Are you telling me that the sole reason why the DL community does not want RBS3 to be chareidi is because there are a few crazies in Rama Bet?

If it was guarenteed that there would be no violence in RBS3, the DL community would back the mayor and follow his decisions? The only issue here is a few hooligans?

I also fail to see what a few hooligans have to do with the other 95% of the chareidim. I know for some reason a lot of people think that Rabbonim need to announce that violence is assur and should not be accepted, but the problem is that the hooligans dont listen to the Rabbonim you want to announce that. The Rabbonim I know dont usually make pointless announcements. Does your Rabbi say things that are pointless? Does your Rabbi get up there and announce the violence is assue and the chassidim or whoever is acting violent is doing something terrible? Does he coondemn every shooting in Tel Aviv? I would hope he has more important issues to discuss with his congregants.

Anon 11:25

Do you really think that the percentage of hooligan chareidim is compareable to the percentage of Hamas Arabs?

Do you really think that shooting missiles into one area from your own area is the same thing as fighting against people who you view as a threat on your own turf?

Or do you just like the idea of comparing Chareidim to arabs?


Oh, and by the way. If you want this country to be a zionist country, run by the zionist government, then yes, you would need to find a housing solution for the Arab population. And you would not be able to deny them all a place to live just because of some crazy terrorists. Sorry to rain on your parade.

Rafi,

If the mayor reneged on an agreement to divide the new area in a certain way, why deal with this? Why not just sue him? The way things work in the courts here, it'll be held up for years, and he'll come begging to allow for the original agreement to go through.

the mayor has not reneged, as far as I know. every time he speaks he says 1/3 to each community.

The suspicion is that there is a secret deal or arrangement between montag and the Misrad HaShikun. I heard there is a document with proof that they are planning to market it only for haredim, but I dont know if there actually is or isnt.

but it is not the mayor. At least not directly. He has spoken, and allowed the City Spokesman, to haredi press talking about rbs being marketed to haredim, but nothing concrete.

can he be sued? I have no idea. I dont know what the legal standing on such a thing is.

if it went to court anyway I dont know what the chances are for holding up such a deal. It seems discriminatory to me. People can buy wherever they want and I dont think by law the city can tell anyone where they can or cannot buy.

Getting a bit confused with all the "anons", but here are a few thoughts:

- Yes, I would expect my Rav to comment publicly if a group from my community beat up a 14 yr old girl, threw a rock a man's head and sent him to the hospital, stoned a school bus, etc. It's irrelevant whether or not the criminals listen. Some things must be said to show that one is not in tacit agreement with the behavior.

- So it's not just about the "crazies" there is strong sense among the broader community that, while a majority of the Chareidi community would not resort to criminal activity, many, if not most, appreciate the "benefits" which accrue from their behavior.

- Yes, it would make a huge difference if there were a guarantee that the Chareidim moving to RBS C had no "eruv rav" among them. We all know that there's a difference between Chareidim who live in RBS A, Har Nof, Bayit V'gan, and those who live in RBS B, Meah Shaarim, etc. We also know that it's the later who are in much more need of housing.

- I don't know where you get your statistic that 5% of the Chareidim are "crazies", as you call them. (I call them terrorists.) But let's go with that number. Estimates are that there are between 30 and 40 thousand Chareidim currently in Beit Shemesh. We'll go with 30. If "only" 5% of them are "crazies" that would be 1500 people. That's a heck of a lot of criminals to have running around.

If someone built an apartment building next door to yours and told you up front that 10 of the men moving in were violent criminals would you protest? Would you try to stop them? Would you worry about the "character" of your neighborhood?

- As I pointed out, the percentage isn't that important, numbers are. So it's irrelevant how the numbers compare to Arab terrorists. (A good example of this is that even if you say that only 1% of Moslems support terror, the actual number is 10,000,000!)

While our own "crazies" are not yet firing missiles, their actions do fall under the basic definition of "terror". A smart terrorist doesn't have to kill anyone. His aim is to use the "fear" of violence in order achieve his goals. So, in a sense, our our own terrorists are much more effective than their Arab cousins.

- The Medina is not helping Chareidim with housing??? You must be kidding. Kiryat Sefer, Beiter Illit, Ramat Shlomo, Givat Ze'ev, Ramot, Beit Shemesh and just here in the center of the country. The list goes on.

- The truth is you're right in that it's more important to us right now that RBS C not be ALL chareidi than it be anything else. We have no guarantees that it won't become a hotbed for Chareidi fundamentalism. Neither the mayor, nor anyone else has any control over what "type" of Chareidim move there. However, if it's GUARANTEED that the area will be divided in thirds at least there's a chance that the presence of so many DLs and secular would limit its desirability for the more radical elements.

- Frankly I think it would be a good idea if RBS C were originally planned as the "Chareidi" section of Beit Shemesh. Its geographical isolation would have avoided much of what we're dealing with today in RBS B.

As such I would be in favor of a "land swap". Let's swap the DL and secular sections of RBS C for RBS B. Wouldn't that be a great solution?

- In the big picture, however it would not be good for Beit Shemesh to have a strong majority of Chareidim. The Chareidi ethos is preventing us from growing in ways a normal city needs to. We should have a Mall, Arts Center, Recreational facilities, maybe even a bowling alley. Just having a Chareidi minority has prevented these things. Kal V'chomer...

On a more practical note. I question the wisdom of expanding Beit Shemesh at all at this point. Our services are strained, our infrastructure is inadequate. Let's build some more playgrounds, shopping centers, and recreational facilities. Let's finish route 10. Route 38 was built to feed a city of 30,000 not 150,000. It needs to become a four lane highway. Let the schools catch up. Let's take care of our weaker populations of Ethiopians and Russians. Let's make sure we preserve some of our beautiful open areas.

Let's turn Beit Shemesh from a backward city into a modern city and then we can talk about increasing the population.

So after a year the Mayor's true views finally come out.
This is the man who when elected promised to unite and work for the good of the whole community - not sure how he plans to achieve this with this disgraceful outburst.

menachem said
"- Yes, I would expect my Rav to comment publicly if a group from my community beat up a 14 yr old girl, threw a rock a man's head and sent him to the hospital, stoned a school bus, etc. It's irrelevant whether or not the criminals listen. Some things must be said to show that one is not in tacit agreement with the behavior."

Your problem lies with individual Rabbis, not all chareidim are from the same community. There has not been any violence in RBSA. Why should a Rabbi from RBSA have to comment on something a chossid from the Kiryah did?


"We also know that it's the later who are in much more need of housing."

I did not know this. I understood this to be a problem across the board. If you mean to split between American and Israelis, I dont know if I agree with you either, but I dont think thats the correct split. The litvishe (non meah shearim yidden) - such as those from Bnei Brak, Kiryat Sefer, Betar, Sanhedria (and surrounding areas) also need places to live. As do sefardi chareidim who are not the meah shearim type. So I am not sure why you think they have more of a need than anyone else.

"If "only" 5% of them are "crazies" that would be 1500 people"

I admit I made it up. As you can tell by your numbers, there area clearly not 1500 "terrorist crazies" runnind around, so the percent is obviously much less. Thanks for pointing out that we are dealing with a miyut she'aino matzui


"If someone built an apartment building next door to yours and told you up front that 10 of the men moving in were violent criminals would you protest? Would you try to stop them? Would you worry about the "character" of your neighborhood"

Yes. Did that happen anywhere? Is there ANY building in BS/RBS that has 10 "terrorist crazies" in it? I dont think so.


"You must be kidding. Kiryat Sefer, Beiter Illit, Ramat Shlomo, Givat Ze'ev, Ramot, Beit Shemesh"

Number 1, I agree that they are helping, though clearly not enough as the demand is much higher than the supply. Couple that with the fact that BS was not meant to be chareidi, so I am not sure the Medina gets so much fo that credit. Betar is no longer building, and I dont know about KS, but I heard the same thing. Lastly, the point was, you cant just make RBS3 and push the chareidim out, if you dont give them somewhere else with enough housing for their people.


" However, if it's GUARANTEED that the area will be divided in thirds at least there's a chance that the presence of so many DLs and secular would limit its desirability for the more radical elements"

Secular dont want to live in BS. Thats the thing. They are scared that it will turn chareidi - even RBSA chareidi, which is too much for a chiloni. Think about it - of you were chiloni, would you risk buying in RBS3, even if there were a third chareidim of the RBSA type? Why wouldnt you just buy where that is not an option? I know I would. When RBSA turned chareidi, they all ran away.


"We should have a Mall, Arts Center, Recreational facilities, maybe even a bowling alley"

Thats your opinion. I personally dont want a mall, or a bowling alley or a recreaton facility. That leads to many issues which I personally feel lead to the detriment of the whole community. I dont see how a chareidi RBS3 would prevent such a center (etc) from opening up somewhere else is BS, in a chiloni section. Evidentally there isnt enough interest.

"I admit I made it up. As you can tell by your numbers, there area clearly not 1500 "terrorist crazies" runnind around, so the percent is obviously much less. Thanks for pointing out that we are dealing with a miyut she'aino matzui"

Actually, I went with your 5% because I think it's too low. I've heard estimates that put the number much higher. Now those estimates also include those who actively support the terrorists. But whether here in BS or in JM one can easily hundreds involved in vandalism when things get hot.

"Yes. Did that happen anywhere? Is there ANY building in BS/RBS that has 10 "terrorist crazies" in it? I dont think so."

First of all, one would be too many. But yes in the building on Rechov Herzog where Moshe Friedman lives, there are several. If you include the buildings on either side of his then you have at least a dozen if not more.

Keep in that these building are directly across the street from our neighborhood. Poor city planning yes, but does not lessen the severity of the situation.

"Thats your opinion. I personally dont want a mall, or a bowling alley or a recreaton facility."

And hence you see why many of us don't want this to become a Chareidi city.

the fact of the matter is that as long as the michrazim are open to every group it is wrong to be against the building just because you are against a 'haredi' takeover. if you want it not to become haredi then populate it with others. otherwise be quiet.

mind you, Haredim have a right to live and build as well.

I am sorry, but as much as I think that there is much wrong with how the Hareidm do things and much of the points made here are right, this reaction is just as wrong as the haredim are. This is simply irrational violence being used against irrational violence; accomplishes nothing.

"mind you, Haredim have a right to live and build as well."

Of course you're correct. Everyone has a right to live anywhere. And I support that.

However, this is not an issue of "rights" it's an issue of city planning. Even in the U.S. the "type" of building determines who moves to an area. It can range from subsidized apartments to 5000 sq ft homes on an acre of land.

So cities have a "right" to build different types of homes to encourage diversity. That's what's happening here. And since it part of the democratic process of the city I certainly do not have to be "quiet" about it.

"This is simply irrational violence being used against irrational violence; accomplishes nothing."

What "irrational violence" is being used against the Chareidim?

SA was me. Sorry about that.

"And hence you see why many of us don't want this to become a Chareidi city."

So put it in a secular area if thats who wants it. Why force RBS3 to be non chareidi just so you can have amenities for the population that exists in a different area. Just build it where the secular and DL have access. You can do it on a moshav or something also, like Moshav Yishi. Its about the same distance as to RBS3 anyways.

Garfield - "the fact of the matter is that as long as the michrazim are open to every group it is wrong to be against the building just because you are against a 'haredi' takeover. if you want it not to become haredi then populate it with others. otherwise be quiet."

This is pretty much the issue here. The DL dont have the need or desire to fill it up. Hence they NEED to have guarentees and quotas etc to make sure. Thats the silliniess of the whole thing.

"There has not been any violence in RBSA."

Baloney!

Have you forgotten about Lag BaOmer in the park a few years ago?

And what about all the intimidation against store owners?

This whole business is a complete Chillul Hashem. it does not matter to me who is responsible, be it the mayor, the RZs, the chilonim, whatever. The point is here is one of the fastest growing cities in Israel, with a majority of religious people, who claim to be G-d fearing, but can't get along with each other, have no respect for each other, and when it comes to land, and other issues, it is GRAB, GRAB, GRAB. Insult the other side, no derech eretz, but sinat chinum from all sides to each other. It makes me sick. There is nothing like this in other cities. All our public representatives should be ashamed of themselves.

Smullen,

You've taken a page right out of the Palestinian "cycle of violence" narrative. If you understood the situation you wouldn't make such sweeping claims.

There's only one (small) group of people here that "can't get along with" the other and has "no respect for" the other. The land issues and everything you see is in direct response to that intolerance.

The evidence for this is that, before this group arrived everyone got along just fine.

Menachem is 100% correct.

I also agree with menachem 100%. He misunderstood me. I meant to say, that the fact the chareidim are unable to get on with the Dati Leumi, and every building site becomes a strategic war, grabbing more land, breaking agreements, considering others who are different as either inferior or even not religious, this brings a situation that what the chareidim are doing is in fact a Chillul Hashem. Of course one must not generalise, and I know thatthere are many chareidim who don't agree with the extremists or the political leaders. But I repeat, that in a city where most are religious, the mud-slinging, the lack of respect for the other, the lack of understanding the other, be it chareidi, Dati Leumi,chilonim, Likud, Shas etc is a chillul Hashem. One might expect this sort of thing in the Left-Right debate, even then it is also Chillul Hashem.