who says that when mashiach comes we have to all live in israel? And making alyah means you want mashiach to come? - please.
I think more of a concern we have today is whether we could still claim to want sacrifices...not all people enjoy killing animals...

sbw,

Thats where you go so far off you fall off the earth.

"I think more of a concern we have today is whether we could still claim to want sacrifices...not all people enjoy killing animals..."

That is a direct commandment by G-D almighty, the same one who created us humans, created the animals.. he created the humans and the animals for a SPECIFIC purpose!

Animal's were created so that man can take the kosher animal up to the altar and sacrafice the animal to g-d and thereby uplift the physical to spiritual..

By denying the desire to slaughgter the animal's, you are perpetrating the great cruelty to the animal! Nothing can be more cruel than denying the animal his spiritual elevation!!

Every morning we recite the karbanot.. we implore hashem to accept our words in exchange or the acts of karbanot and to built the beit hamikdash speedily so we can resume the sacrafices.

One of the questions the class was asked was probably, "Would you rather live in a dictatorship (monarchy) or in a democracy?"

I think another question is why do people think that Mashiach has to come before we can move to Israel? (Besides, of course, certain Chasidic "sects" who have a tradition that this is the case.)

It always amused me when I got a wedding invitation (when I was still living in the US) that gave, on the Hebrew side of the invitation, the location of the wedding as Yerushalayim, and if Mashiach hasn't come, it will be in Brooklyn or wherever. If it's so important to have it in Israel, so have it in Israel regardless of whether Mashiach has come. And if Mashiach came the day before the wedding, I find it hard to believe that plans would have been changed (and deposits forfeited) so quickly.

(BTW, all of these people intended to move to Israel, but, as of 6-8 years later, none of them have yet!)

sbw - in a sense you are right. I do not think when mashiach will come everyone will have to move to Israel. After all, it seems clear that in the time of the Second Temple a majority of Jews lived abroad and did not return. I would like to think that most jews would come back to Israel, but it is not definite.

And no, making aliyah does not mean you want mashiach to come, but I think that making aliyah means you are willing to give up your creature comforts for an ideal you believe is right. Therefore, someone who made aliyah will likely be more open to really wanting mashiach and the mikdash.

joe - that could be... I wonder how many of us know the differences between the two, unless we come from certain European countries, and even then....

yoni - that is a good question, albeit not really related to the post. I always get a kick out of the great armchair zionists in America....

With regards to techeilet, I once asked HaRav Avraham Shapira (Rosh Yeshiva of Merkaz HaRav). If I understood him correctly he said that since the masoret of what techeilet is was lost only the Sanhedrin could reestablish the masoret.

With regards to Beit HaMikdash, I know that I want it. I cannot speak for anyone else. Of course this will require a very great change in lifestyle. I remember learning certain sugyot dealing with tum'ah and taharah in my daf yomi shiur and I remarked that people must have been nervous wrecks when these laws applied. The rabbi replied that just as we are accustomed to separate milk dishes and meat dishes without thinking about it too much, so it was with tum'ah and taharah. People were used to keeping the laws and it was second nature to them.

Perhaps this is one of the reasons that the redemption comes gradually (kim'ah kim'ah). First we have to learn how to live as a nation in the land. It was no small feat to make a Jewish army after 2000 years. We have to learn how to keep the land-dependent Mitvot including Smittah. We have to get rid of all of the bads influences of the exile. If the redemption were to come miraculously then we would have to learn all of these things instantly. This itself would be part of the miracle I guess.

May we be ready and worthy for the Temple, speedily and in our days!

cosmic - with regards to tcheilet, that really is one of the most popular reasons for rejecting it. The problem with that rejection though is that it is really only the opinion of Briskers that no mesora can be renewed until mashiach comes. As another Rabbi told me (though I do not know what his source was), we would not be able to take an esrog on sukkos if we really believed that we cannot renew mesorah, as at some point in history (he knew when, I do not remember) that mesorah had to be renewed. There are other examples as well.

Your suggestion is interesting about going in stages as prep for mashiach.
BTW, I know somebody who said that is why in this generation we have a proliferation of "chad peami" dishware - throw-aways. plastic and paper plates and cutlery. Because it will make it easier for the beit hamikdash. Just throw away your plate - no need to kasher anything that becomes tamei. It solves a lot of problems of tumah and tehara...

Re: Esrog + Mesorah:

Not taking an esrog is a bitul asei. Not wear tzitzis with tcheles is still a kiyum asei, albeit not in the most ideal way.

If I am not mistaken, not wearing tcheiles when tcheiles is available might also be a bittul asei.

Not wearing techeiles, when it's available is a bitul asseh, but you don't know if it's available.

And don't say safek d'oraisah lhachmir, because that only applies when the safek will be resolved not when we'll still be in a safek.

this was not intended to be a debate on whether or not one should wear tcheilet, but to continue the point, on the chance that tcheiles is correct, it is a bittul asei. The upside is great, i.e. fulfilling a d'oraisa, the downside is minimal - paying more money for your tzitzis. The added risk is that if you do not do it, you might be over a bittul asei, I see no reason not to wear tcheiles, unless you cannot afford it. How much do you pay for your esrog? How many movies a month do you rent from blockbuster? how expensive was your last vacation? Can you really not afford to do a mitzva d'oraisa, even if only b'safek?
You do not need to answer me that question - consider it by yourself and answer it to yourself. I criticize nobody for not wearing tzitzis. Again, that was not the subject of the post.

The subject of the post was whether or not we really want the mikdash to be rebuilt or are we only paying lip service in our tefillos. I used tcheiles as an example of something that many people consider having some sort of messianic tinge to it. Proof is that some say (and were quoted here) the tcheiles cannot be returned until mashiach comes and sanhedrin is re-established.

Another example is the recent sanhedrin. Nobody was against it because of the quality of the rabbonim sitting on it. People were against it because they said sanhedrin cannot be re-established until mashiach comes and does so, and who are these rabbis anyway to declare themselves a sanhedrin.

So whenever anything comes up that has a tinge of messianism to it, I mentioned that it is automatically rejected by most people.

I remember not so long on the OU's hundreth anniversary they published a future looking piece what the OU would be doing in a hundred years from now. I was really annoyed, why didn't they write that mashiach will have come and all the Jews in America will move to Israel and there will be no OU in America. It is clear that most people do not really believe in mashiach and even fewer want to see korbanos come back. To someone brought up in the West "sacrifices" are associated with primitive people.

When the Taliban blew up a bunch of ancient idols about 10 years ago the world was up in arms. When Saudia Arabia forbids Christians from worshipping in Saudia Arabia people get upset. This includes many religious Jews in America. Yet, what the Taliban did is correct al pi halacha, there is a halacha that we must destroy idols. When Moshiach comes there will be no freedom of speech, thought, or religion. Someone who worships avoda zara, does melacha on Shabbos, adultery, will be put to death.

This is very hard for religious Jews raised in America to swallow.

I posted ( How much different is Charedi society then Saudia Arabia?) an intersting comparison between Saudia Arabia and what is going on in the Charedi world and how similar they really are.

Rafi G...I know this was not the reason behind your post. I personally have no issue with people wearing techailes. However my Rabbaim did not wear it, therefore I don't have that mesorah:Are you suggesting the gedolai hador like Rabbi Kanievsky are unaware of the issues of techailes? I think the messianic deal is not very accurate at all.

jewish blogmeister - I have no problem with you not wearing tcheiles.
Anybody who decides halachically that he does not need to wear them, either by his own decision or by speaking with his Rav, is fine.

To blame it on the fact that certain gedolim do not is a cop out. Does Rav Kanievsky listen to Avraham Fried music? MBD? I don't think so. Does that mean you should not? I do not think so.
Do you do everything Rav Kanievsky does and refrain from everything he refrains from? I am sure I don't.

There are plenty of rabbonim who put on tcheiles and plenty who do not. You can pretty much find a rav who will support whichever decision you are looking to support. I saw a letter from Rav Shlomo Zalman Orbach written at the end of his life in which he says he supports the tcheiles endeavor and he himself would put them on if he was not so old and set in his ways. I know his son in law does wear tcheiles.

So quoting any one specific rav one way or the other is meaningless to me. If you follow Rav Kanievsky, fine, don't wear tcheiles. If you think halachically there is no need, dont wear them. That is fine and legitimate.

I just mentioned that a rav told me, and it is true, there is a touch of a taste of messianism to it. That scares people off. People think of it as somethign done by crazy settlers. People think of it as something done by people who are zionistic and want to wrest the Land from its Muslim infidels, etc... There is a touch of messianism felt by people in it. The thing is it is getting more and more accepted. At least in Israel, more and more people are wearing tcheiles, even among the charedi public. Sure it is still a small minority, but it is growing.

bluke - those are both very good examples, especially that of the OU..

Interesting. I just had a friend who asked an unrelated shailah to a particular gadol in Jerusalem who then noticed my friend's tchelet and told him to take it off immediately, and that it was assur to wear, in no uncertain terms.

(And not only assur to wear, but he couldn't even sell it to someone else!!!).

regarding the appeal a sacrificial cult: i love it when non-orthodox writers misread the rambam in the moreh and state that he did not believe there would be sacrifices in the third bet hamikdash. on the other hand, you can't deny that rambam himself denied that sacrifices ab initio are a central component of worshipping god.

(on the topic of rambam and mashiah, it should be noted that mashiah was altogether not central to the theology of the rambam.)

SBW:

"who says that when mashiach comes we have to all live in israel?"

a central component of mashiah is kibbutz galuyot

RAFI:

"it seems clear that in the time of the Second Temple a majority of Jews lived abroad and did not return."

my recollection from when i learned the nevi'im of the shivat tziyyon period is that this was a shortcoming on the part of the exiles.

JOESETTLER:

"One of the questions the class was asked was probably, "Would you rather live in a dictatorship (monarchy) or in a democracy?""

that's where my hand would go down.

BLUKE:

"It is clear that most people do not really believe in mashiach"

i don't think this is true. believing in it is not the same as focusing on it.

"and even fewer want to see korbanos come back."

here too i don't think most people are actually opposed to korbanos. they are just not considered important to be on the radar (even despite their place in tefillah).

"This is very hard for religious Jews raised in America to swallow."

yes

ari - my recollection from when i learned the nevi'im of the shivat tziyyon period is that this was a shortcoming on the part of the exiles.

I agree, but nonetheless, people still might not come. As I said though, I would hope they would, but they might not.

2,000 years of galus does that to you.. Gashmiut is a folley..

Moshiach is the central theme of judaism... to create a "dira lo yisbarech" and to banish evil from the world "v'saavir memshalat zadon min haaretz"

What saddens me is that most people are either unaware or not conected with the tefilot...

After saying the terumat hadeshen, the karbanot and the ezehu mekoman.. all of which are started off with a deep tefilah imploring the ribono shel olam to accept these tefilot as if we had makriv the karbanot.. and that we are begging g-d to rebuild the beit hamikdash speedily!

I dunno does anyone even notice "mizmor le'toda" said to make up and verbaly makriv the karban toda..

I mean I should be crying over the low level jews have sunken.. to say that we dont want the 70 bull's offering on sukot which bring peace to the world..

Look at your shabat tefilot.. uvayom hashabat, shnei kvasim bnei shana temimim...

We finish the tefilot saying "velakachta solet v'afisa shnei esronim"

What do we read on chagim? on yom kipur ?

Years ago cohanim would study and memorize the halachot of the avoda and shechita in anticipation of the rebuilding of the beit hamikdash..

Ani ma'amin b'emunah shleima bebiat hamashiach...

How can you be so stuck in galut to even question i we want mashiach or karbanot ?

Is that why hashem created the world so we can play on our PDA's ?

v'nashlama parim sifateinu..

Moshiach is the central theme of judaism
...
What saddens me is that most people are either unaware or not conected with the tefilot...

Ironically, this statement would imply a closer connection to Lubavitch than to tefillos, per se.

The central theme, (aside from Avodas Hashem, of course), is not Moshiach, but Geula. Moshiach is (merely?) (one possible?) a vehicle for the Ultimate Geula.

Even one who might want the Beis Hamikdash might be disturbed by the idea of the wholesale slaughter of animals. Good! Anyone _not_ disturbed by it has not internalized a proper Hashkafa.

One of the reasons that korbanos are effective is that a person should see the sacrifice of the animals as a substitute for the sacrifice of himself. Yes, with all the blood and guts and sights and smells. Anyone who would NOT be troubled, at least slightly, by such a thing, has been desensitized to an unhealthy degree.

Our avodah, of course, is to do what HKBH asks, and do it anyway, willingly, and joyously. But to not be affected is not what is asked of us.

elchonon:

"Moshiach is the central theme of judaism"

god is the central theme of judaism

To those who have problems with slaughtering animals, I wonder how many have recently been to the supermarket and looked at steaks or hamburger or chickens to buy and how many served it at the Shabbat tables.

It's just the unfamiliar context which throws you off. For the Cohanim who would eat the korbanot, it's a daily barbeque. I wonder if this is why Israelis love their meat al haeish.

Anyway, I and all my family members also really, really want Mashiach and the geula shleimah with all it's changes (corrections) and we watch daily for any news that indicates where we might be on the geulah timeline. It's a common subject of discussion and most decisions are based on how close we feel we might be to the geula shleimah.

I cry when I daven and plead with Hashem to deliver us from the Erev Rav regime which is responsible for so much bloodshed and so much grief and so much injustice in our land.

I think to want Mashiach so much requires not having much of a life on this side of the geula and to be able to look above one's own situation to see the lack in our people's situation, a lack which can only be corrected by the complete redemption, may it come speedily in our days!

I think a bigger problem than this is Jews who take the attitude of "I don't have to make aliyah to Eretz Yisrael" rather than "I don't get to make aliyah to Eretz Yisrael." If you can't make aliyah and you don't feel deprived and envious of those who can, there is something seriously wrong with your neshama. Eretz Yisrael is a treasure and those who embrace her are the most privileged human beings on earth.

So you twist my words around, implying that I as a lubavitcher have no conection to tefilah...

But what are you davening for ? I remember a mashal about a peasent that did a favor for the king so the king asked him what he wanted and the peasent said something like a new plow..

Obviusly G-D is the central part of judaism, but in our avodah and tefillah our biggest focus is mashiach..

And its quite simple... you cant serve hashem properly in galus.. PERIOUD!

Who are you fooling when you say that "besides for avodas hashem" and which person thinks he can serve hashem in galut ?

pirkey d'rabbi eliezer "v'ruach elokim merachefet al pnei hamayim" he says thats moshiach.

This has NOTHING to do with lubavitch!!!

It has everything to do with the blindness of jews in galus... yes like the jews that stayed in bavel instead of going up with ezra and nechemia..

How can we serve hashem without karbanot?

"lo cohen b'avodato, v'lo levi b'duchano, v'lo yisrael b'maamado"

Why did g-d create the world ? v'aasu li mikdash v'shachanti b'tocham.. and to make this physical world a dira b'tachtonim.

The menorah lite up the world, and there was the ketores and shulchan and mizbaech hachitzon...

"umala haaretz de'as hashem, kamayim bayimn nichasim"

Forget the nevuot of zecharya and daniel, amos etc.. we need to serve hashem right?

Yes we do, with our prime focus being on meriting the geula amitit - moshiach.. because in galut our avoda is no where near complete.

Perhaps one may be troubled by the sacraficing of animal's, yet he is required to rejoice as well.. that he has the ability to mechaper his aveirot by slaughtering the animal.

I grew up in a Lubavitch school in my younger years and I do not remember Lubavitch being any more centrally themed on tefilla than any school I went to in my years after that.
Chabad is, however, more centrally themed around mashiach. Even before the days of the meshichists who have gone overboard, chabad was always about bringing mashiach (maybe not in Russia, but in America under the last Rebbe). They coined the phrase "We want mashiach now". They were always about doing more mitzvos in order to bring mashiach.

If nothing else (and they have plenty more), chabad is responsible for putting mashiach on the Jewish map. Does anybody else speak or even think about what to do to bring mashiach (let's still stick to the non-meshichists)?

ELOCHONON

"How can we serve hashem without karbanot?"

with tefillah, observing mitzvot, imitatio dei, etc.

there are mekorot (rambam in the moreh, meforshim at chet ha-egel, etc.) that state that korbanot were instituted ex post facto.

(but just to reiterate what i stated above, the nature of the origin of korbanot has no bearing on the agreed-upon (?) fact that there will be korbanot in the third bet ha-mikdash.)

"in our avodah and tefillah our biggest focus is mashiach"

that remains to be demonstrated

"our prime focus being on meriting the geula amitit - moshiach.. because in galut our avoda is no where near complete."

mashiach is one of those subjects that has support for just about every possible view. your formulation here (especially what i infer is a non-geographic-related concept of galut) is just one. rambam, for example, felt otherwise (yes, despite the 12th ikkar).

Interesting conversation.

Although,like the lack of mention of heaven and hell, there is no mention of the mashiach in the torah. The first two temples were built by slave labor....was there any other kind? And for the third all the orthojews are waiting for it to drop from the sky fully built.

As for korbanot: well that issue has been brought up before on this blog. The fact is that the rabbis did away with a group of laws which are clearly written in the book. Korbanot had zero limitations to the temple. But orthodox jews feel that if there rabbis do away with laws it is somehow different then a conservative or reform or egalatarian rabbi explaining the book in their own manner.

As for belief in mashiach: well similarly to belief in god, as chris hitchens in his latest book,"god is not good" "if you ask people if they believe in god 90% will say yes. But if you watch people you will find that their actions betray them."
The vast majoriaty of people do not believe in god and therefore cannot believe in a messiah.

Ari,

Not to imply anything g-d forbid, but anyone who says we can serve hashem in galut just as much as after mashiach comes is 1 a idiot and 2 a a pikores and a kofer bakol v'en lo chelek b'elokei yisrael.

SAY IT DAMMIT!!! WE WANT MASHIACH NOW! WE WANT THE GEULA!!

I'm sorry was 6 million jews not enough? was 50 years of stamping out judaism in russia not enough? does the current situation not tear out your heart to scream "AD MATAI!!!!!"

or are you too lost in proving how we can serve hashem in galut ?

Or do you subscribe to the snaggy line of char v'onesh and we do mitzvot so we can get our olam haba eh ? and of course the whole moshiach concept was invented by chabadnikim...

Nevermind that the gra wrote a sefer on the geula, the chafetz chayim said that this dor is zoche to be nitgael..

Were we not promised by hashem? v'haya bayom hahu yitaka b'shofar gadol... I dont subscribe to 1948 being a completion of the nevuot "od yashvu, v'nitatem etc..."

See nevua "umayan yeitzei minachal shitim" as well as daniel's nevuot and their meforshim.

We were promised we would not be in galut forever... so now that life in america is rosy WE DO NOT WANT THE GEULA ??????

titbayesh all of you deending the galut....satan has made you his advocates in defending this 2000 year galut!!!

Of course you dont want a geula and a end to your physical plesures.. ba'alei teiva!

dan - that is precisely he question. when we daen for the return to jerusalem and the mashiach et al, do we really mean it or not.... your quote from chris hitchens is very conclusive, I was looking for a public poll type response...

if you want a poll result you can put me down for not believing in god or mashiach.

But I am curious why there is no mention of heaven, hell or the mashiach in the torah. You would think that such fundamental issues would be mentioned. I would like to find some reference to these issues that predates other religions, because every time I hear about these issues they sound completely christian with a hint of paganism. Just look at elchonon's rant, for him satan is the christian satan. Is elchonon a jew or a christian.

Very intersting post.
One must look at this from the POV of the klal and of the individual.
An analogy: Imagine somebody who due to a building flaw has a badly insulated childrens room in his house. Every winter rain comes through the walls and the kids had to be moved out. No other solution.
Now from 7 of cheshvan every year we say Tal Umotor. Does this person have to say it as well? Absolutely. Does he say it? Certainly. Now suppose there is a draught. A fast day is announced. Does this person have to fast? Of course.
But does this person want the rain? I'm not sure I would. I probably would be happy for every sunny day.
I think its the same ambivalence with Moshiach. Its "good" for the klal but may be "not" for a specific individual. He still has to wait for him.

Anonymous,

No offense but very flawd, there are many meshalim of mashiach... liker the guy that goes to a island which has millions of diamonds but discovers that the local curency is cocunuts.. so he starts gathering cocunuts.. sof sof after many years he is very wealthy and decides to go back to where he came from.. he loads up a ship with cocunuts and they say nu ?!? cocunuts ?!?! where are the diamonds!!!!

Tell me why being in galut can be good for the individual? ANY individual...

Its a folley, a bitter ilusion... do you really want the financial worries ? or the health worries ? or worrying about nuclear war ?

Your just like those that stayed in bavel...you dont want to part with the physical but you want the beit hamikdash...

Its galut of 2,000 years!!! starting with titus and the yeshiva students of beitar and the destruction of yehuda...

We are commanding to sit on the stone floor at midnight and mourn the destruction of the beit hamikdash and jerusalem.. and pray for its rebuilding..

The shechina has been in exile for 2,000 years!!! does that not make your soul stir ?!?!? hashem has followed us into exile and suffers with his people..


Hashem and his torah have been trampled on, mocked, disgraced and destroyed for 2,000 years and you DARE talk about galut being good for the individual?!?!?

Crussaders, inquisitions, cossaks, blood libeals, holecausts... not enough to make you scream AT MATAI!!!!

if the individual feel's he is better off on galut, he is a member of the eruv rav (see the gra's sefer) and like egypt where the eruv rav wanted to stay in egypt.. so too today's eruv rav wants to stay in galut.

BUSHA!

While Elchonon's points may be valid, a few small suggestions:
1. Passion that leads to nibbul peh is generally not from a tahor source
2. At Matai is probably more clear if written Ad Matai (or Ad Mosai). Of course, the Rebbe zt"l said that this is no longer the mantra of our generation ("Moshiach Now" is better).
3. The erev rav were those who _left_ Egypt to come to E"Y with B'nei Yisroel for impure motives. The nimshol is deliberately left unsaid

Elchonon: your semi-christian passion has inspired me. I now hope and pray for the mashiach to come. After all, once we all live in a torah state Men stand to have great benefits. Hopefully you don't have a daughter. Being as religious as you clearly are you wouldn't mind pocketing the 50 shekel and packing your daughter off to live with the man who raped her.
If you think this is an offensive response just check out the book, look in deuteronomy. Either God and I are both offensive, or....

ELCHONON:

i am glad you had an opportunity to vent. now that you feel better (i hope), please go back and actually read what i wrote in the comments above. it's one thing to read out of context or or even to misconstrue what someone says, but you seem mostly to be responding to assertions i never made.

BLUKE and JOE SETTLER:

in reference to your comments above about american jews who prefer democracy to a monarchy/religious state: events like what went on today in jerusalem reinforce this attitude.

I am so supprised at the comments, that I could not read them all. I felt like I was at the tea party in Alice and Wonderland. Clean cup! move down, move down!
I am sure this is the main reason God has NOT allowed another temple thus far. I think after 2000 plus years it is quite obvious that we as people haven't learned our lessons. Truly There will be a "new" Jerusalem, a "new" temple and "new" way to Glorify Him. Sacrifice will be no more and why I know this... is because it is written in Ezekiel that the prey was removed. That the new temple will "NOT" be in a city of blood. And will be clean from animal and human blood that represents sin.
We will Glorify Him with our Mark on our head from inkhorn. Only the ones who cried for the abominations in the city and in the temple, these are the ones that will be protected, and live.
I am most sure, tcheiles has more meaning then you actually know. Although I disagree we should be dying them with unclean animals... I think you must grasp the original understanding of the Glory of the Lord and the blue colour. Only then will it have its original meaning!
My personal opinion is: I think God was very direct that the land had become defiled. Only God can make something barren for 2000 plus years give birth. Shall we continue to make the same mistakes, or learn from them?