There's so much missing from this story that it's impossible to understand what's happening here.

If she's chassidic, where has her Rebbe been until now?

Why didn't the husband consult the Rebbe, instead of the doctors?

I can't imagine anyone advising her to continue this suicidal course. If a fetus is threatening the mother's life, we take the life of the fetus to save the mother. Obviously, this is true even if it will destroy her ability to have another baby.

While I agree with you that as an objective observer I can safely say she is doing the wrong thing, I can also say hat for you, as a parent of a number of children, to say "Life does not have to end at the uterus" is incredibly callous.

As someone who has dealt with infertility, Baruch Hashem now has children, I can tell you that when on the "before" side of the equation it really does seem as if no natural children means life is not worth living. There are those for whom adoption or surrogacy (very difficult concept halachicaly and I do not know anyone who has gotten permission to have it) but for many, many people it is not really a realistic option. We would not have been allowed to adopt under current regulations. Family may be (however wrongly) not willing to accept an adopted or surrogate child.

you mean they are more accepting of their daughter/sister/cousin dieing of cancer rather than accept either no grandchildren or going through fertility options or adoption?

I am trying not to be callous. I said she is going through a very difficult decision making process, and she should be given leeway. I have no idea where her support system is, where her husband (if she is married) or parents are. But no kids does not mean the only other option is death, which is where she is heading.

Rafi, Anon here. Yes that is exactly what I am saying. There are families out there who really do think that no natural children means no value. there are women facing a lifetime of pain from their families who might honestly prefer to be dead than endure it.

You, as a parent of multiple children, are blessed to never understand the concept that it really is that way for some people.

there are many people who do not want to live if they can not have children of their own.

Hi Rafi,
I don't think you are being calous. You are just fortunate enough to be unaware of some of the pressure in the community.

Not having children can leave a person feeling or in some cases literally left out of the community. That is on top of the emotions of not being able to have a child. Fertility treatment is an emotional roller coaster hell, especially when you thrown in medication that makes you sick all the time. Adoption may work for some but for most people does not replace a child of your own. In Israel you need to foster a special needs child because adopting automatically cuts off most government support.

I know someone who had a Down Syndrome baby. A family friend made it a point to tell them they could just leave the baby at the hospital and never worry about it again. Do you think such a community is any less callous towards infertility?

When it comes to divorce and babies, in many frum communities, the affect on future Shiduchim takes priority over any considerations of the people involved.

anons husband - I know people who have adopted children abroad (normal kids, not special needs) because the process was easier than in Israel, and then brought the kids home to Israel.
I am sure the decisions before her are very difficult and weighty. To the point of death? This is almost like assisted suicide, in a sense.

anon again.

Yes Rafi. Many people, and I can speak from experience, do consider suicide when faced with the possibility of never having children. I was incredibly lucky to have an incredibly supportive husband and therapist, and chose to turn my back for many years on the frum community that told me I was worthless if I was not an Ima- not everyone is so lucky.

As I said, we would not have been qualified to adopt, and would not have had the money to go international. As it stood, years of treatment that did not work set our finances so far back that now, 8 years later, we are still so far in debt we will never climb out of it.

that makes the situation even more depressing, and disappointing. The community should be supportive, and not put so much pressure on, even though I am sure most of the pressure is inadvertent. It is a bit of an indictment on the frum community/

I have been saying that for years. Infertility and childlessness is silent torture. It is only in the last 5 years or so that organizations like Atime and Bonei Olam have even started to make real advances to showing the frum public that this is out there and painful.

It is a huge issue for many people- leading to depression and isolation and community leaders do not even realize how common it is. Current data indicate that infertility can affect as many as 1 out of every 6 couples- yet the Rabbi at our shul, when confronted about something incredibly hurtful that he had said in a drasha, had not even thought to assume that anyone in the 300 people in attendance might be dealing with such an issue.

I know of at least 3 families who were there at the time.

When I first read this I saw that there was something behind this - my thoughts going to the psychiatric side. What Anon is saying is a lot sadder - that it is institutionalized pressure.

This woman is caught in a catch 22 made by religious spin doctors. She really feels she has nothing left to do in life if she is not a womb. She (or others in her place) also (and I admit that this is gross conjecture, reading through the lines) believes that everything is in Gods hands and has resigned herself to her fate that if her prayers will not be answered and no miracle comes then she must die - a bit like R. Yishmael going behind the pargod to ask if this is a decree from on high.

Tragically for her, the reality is that Jewish women's emancipation exists a few minutes from her home and that nothing is more Jewish than to fight fate and overturn God's decision. If only she knew that there is another (Jewish) way.

Hopefully this woman's rebbe might now see the result of all the social pressure and do something about it before it is too late.

Anon: "yet the Rabbi at our shul, when confronted about something incredibly hurtful that he had said in a drasha..."

Time to find a new Rabbi??

I have the feeling that for this woman, the problem is not that that NOW people who love her aren't pressuring her to have surgery, but rather for the LAST 10, 15 or 25 years those who love her have been pressuring her to get married and have babies. So that even if now they are saying "have the surgery, your life is more important," it isn't convincing if all these years they have given her the message that the PURPOSE of her life is to have many children and build a bayit ne'eman b'yisrael. Their words may sound empty. She knows that if she has the surgery her life will not have much value in her community. If she is single, who will marry her? If she is married, what value does she have except as the person making dinner for her husband?

This is in addition to the personal psychitraic issues that can arise with infertility. I can tell you that as a non-haredi woman whose parents do NOT pressure me to marry and who is educated with a job and lots of volunteer activities I *still* consider suicide sometimes, because I'm single without kids (not seriously, thank God, because I take anti-depressants and have a good support system). Kal v'chomer someone in the haredi community who is facing a choice between infertility and death. Lo Aleinu.

first anon here- Or work on educating our current one. He has come a long way in 18 months or so since I left shul in tears.

One form of community pressure is through all of the segulahs out there to help with fertility.

After one particular incident where I was humiliated with the "honour" of Kvater, we joined a group of couple who refused to do it. The segulah doesn't even have a Makor.

Should we ever have a son, Kvater will either be left out or go to someone where there is no hava minah that they might be dealing with fertility issues.

when we were a young couple, we bought into the segulah aspect as well, and gave kvatter to a newly married, or someone who we thought "needed" it.

when we got older and more mature we gave kvatter to older friends of ours who are grandparents many times over as an honor (american godfather type honor) rather than a a segula

"The segulah doesn't even have a Makor".

That is half the problem.

While speaking against the culture of segulot you then say that some of them have a "makor" and are therefore potent. I challenge you to find a "makor" for any segula that makes it any less superstitious and worthless than the next one.

People believe in magical mechanical segulot which when they don't work (they won't more than a statistical 50% of the time) then blame themselves for not being pure of worthy enough for the segula to work.

An example of a segulah with a makor is wearing a ruby during pregnancy. Rabeinu Bachaya brings it down stemming from Bereishit (I do not have the source at hand but did a paper on it in and other "healing stones in the Jewish tradition in school).

Not all segulot are foolish. Forcing people into them, whether tey have a makor or not, and putting people into the limelight while doing them, is the part that bothers me. A woman can bite the end off of as many etrogim as she can get her teeth on to- the minute someone else hands her one publically, where she is in a position where she can not say anything without her motives being questioned, that is where segulahs need to stop.

As much as R. Bacheye "brings down" a segula related to wearing a certain magical stone his almost-contemporary the Rambam would have had none of it.

The idea that you can change your luck by doing magical acts and not because you deserved it by tefilla-teshuva-tzedaka is always superstition. Are you saying that there are powers invoked by wearing the ruby that are more powerful than hakadosh barukh hu? Or are you saying that wearing the ruby forces Him to do your will?

since when do all rabbis need to agree on something for it to be a makor. Rafi asked for an example I gave him one. Rambam was a rationalist and as such none of the segulot would have any relevance to him. On the other hand, there is a long history to powerful stones in Jewish tradition- and obviously that is not the only type of segulah that exists.

D I believe that stones themselves are "magical"? No. do I think that they, just like herbal remedies that are being rediscovered and alternative treatments like hypnosis could potentially have an effect on us tht we do not yet understand? sure, why not. I have nor reason to think that Hashem put them in the earth only to be used for crowns and breastplates.

Sorry, forgot to include 1 more thing. There is a long history of "magic" whether is should or should not belong can be questioned, but for every rationalist, there are plenty of others writing amulets and inscribing ceremonial knives.

There is actually currently a fascinating exhibit on Jewish magic going on at the bible lands museum.

I never said everyone had to agree to a rationalist view.

You now posit a view that perhaps the stone is not a segula, but a cure akin to herbal remedies. In that case I would not oppose it so strongly only request to see the results of a clinical trial.

However IMO segulot are quite literally driving people crazy when they don't work - which they won't. People are running round praying according to kabalistic schedules at tombs, biting etrogim, wearing stones, casting spells and wondering why nothing happens. They then blame themselves that they not only have a problem but they are not worthy of having the segula to work to get themselves out of it.

And incidentally there is nothing demeaning in precious stones being created for beauty. If the world (nay the universe) is so beautiful, then God must like beauty.

I just don't think anything is here ONLY for beauty. I believe that every piece of creation has a purpose- things might also be beautiful, but I do not think that is the primary purpose.

I think segulot became such by having some sort of track record- this certainly does not mean that everything one suggests is valid- or even that any of them really are! I once heard of a woman being offered soap used in a taharah to use on mikva night as a segulah to have children. (Not just bizarre but icky if you ask me!)

I agree with you 100% that segulot, even those with a makor, should be taken with a very large grain of salt (and possibly a shot of tequila) and that, certainly as practiced today, are a whole lot of nothing and serve only to make people crazy. I was just answering Rafi's question about one with a makor.

by the way, believe me, I do not think there is anything demeaning about stones or anything else being beautiful.

While people must be sensitive to those going through infertility etc., people going through it have to try to be less sensitive. I had a baby and asked a friend who was married for 5 years without kids to be kvatter at my son's bris. She said, Thank you, I can't, and that was the end of it. I am sure she knew I meant well - I hope she didn't get off the phone and cry! Saying "Im yirtzeh Hashem by you" has become wicked to say to singles - now you may only say, "Oif simchas!" to the point that I, at 20, did not receive any blessings at my older sis's wedding and began wondering if nobody realized I was old enough to date!

It is about who and when. I got a phone call from someone I had never heard of asking me to kvatter, then getting *upset* and scolding me when I politely declined- that got me upset. I got a phone call from a friend who I saw all the time, it was not exactly the same kettle of fish.

when one has an "illness", it is near impossible to really know what their mental status truly is or their basis for decision making. I knew 2 girls growing up who developed life threatening illnesses that started in their leg. One girl chose the path of amputation, got better, got married, and BH has a lovely family now. The other girl decidied amputation wasn't for her, knowing the other option was death, and in fact she died, refusing amputation. Now, she had her family to help her and her Rabbi and I was not privy to their private discussions, only what I got from her and her family. But she knew death was the only other choice and still refused to try amputation.

The point is, when one is faced with what seems like a horrific choice, we simply cannot see into their thought process. While I certainly have a hard understanding this poor womans choice, I can also say, I simply cannot know what she was taught about the purpose of women and the importance of having kids, and how hat is impacting her decision.

This is so sad. Sara Schneerson had no children. You can still do some good in the world even if you don't birth your own children. What a waste! I have to go find something encouraging or funny to read now because this is making me too depressed.

Rafi S,
Do you believe that someones stomach can affect the weather? We have a long Mesorah for fasting to bring rain.

To me the purpose of a Segulah is to focus on our relationship with the one in charge. If it helps us focus on Hasham and our own personal growth then great. If it is used as some sort of magic potion, than it has missed the point and is meaningless.

I think segulot became such by having some sort of track record...

heh heh... any of my fellow Stern graduates out there ever pay attention to the widespread "minhag" some girls (yes in this case girls) had to press the elevator button on the current floor because they heard it makes the doors close faster? eventually the doors close anyway - and since unlike most elevators it doesn't cause them to reopen, they think something statistical happened....

Risa - I was thinking Bambi (Rebtzn Bamberger). But you'd need one of those types to become a mentor and show her the light. Another aspect of the situation, and the one shaya describes, is that the women are very young.

I think Risa was referring to sara Shnerer the founder of the Bet Yakov movement in Poland. Unless seh was referring to the wife of the Lubavither Rebbe.

To get to the point: Does anyone really think death is better. And to the one contemplating suicide, it's still not the same. rafi you're Ok. And speaking as one with these problems - not that I look at myself that way- you got to be nuts not to choose life. And there is no posek who wouldn't agree.

I think it's clear that here is more to the story. The doctors should have forced the issue very quickly.