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Jan 9, 2012

Machon PUAH Responds To Attack

One of the rabbonim involved in the PUAH Institute sent out this explanation of the recent controversy to their mailing list. I thought it was worth publicizing, considering my recent post about the attack on Machon PUAH..

The Hebrew is below, at the bottom. I have translated it here:
Because many men and women have turned to me asking for a clarification about the attack in the media against PUAH, I will explain the issue.
For 12 years PUAH Institute has organized an annual conference in which new innovations in medicine along with the rabbinic approach to these are presented.
At the beginning, the conference was designated for rabbonim poskim in order for them to integrate into their psak the new issues related in halacha. The first conferences were in a shul and only rabbonim were invited and the presenters were all men.
It was clear to us that if we would invite female presenters to speak to the rabbonim, a large portion of the rabbonim would not come to the conference, and it would turn out the conference would have lost its purpose of integrating the medicine to the poskim from all sectors. despite that PUAH Institute was established by Rav Menachem Borshtein from Merkaz HaRav, the Institute is not sectoral and sees itself as responsible for for advancing the field of medicine and halacha for all sectors including the haredi sector. Therefore the conference was organized in a way that all the rabbonim across the rainbow could participate.
With time, many of the wives of the rabbonim wanted to join the conference, so we opened the doors to all. We moved it from the shul to a hall but we retained the style being a rabbinic conference, meaning separate seating and only male presenters.
For 11 years that was acceptable to the public and to the doctors with no problems. Every year we received a large audience, over 1500 participants, and we turned into the largest conference in the area of medicine and halacha.
All the doctors requested to speak at the conference, and those not invited were insulted. There was always administrative complaints after the conference .. from our hospital as well that made calculations why only 3 doctors from the hospital were invited..
As I explained the purpose of the coference was to advance the halachic psak and via that to advance public health, and specifically for women. Rabbonim who until that point had not allowed pregnant women to undergo certain exams, began to allow it. Rabbonim were more attentive to the needs of couples, and gave them more fitting solutions.
This conference also brought the medical world closer to the torah world and to our community. Suddenly the doctors understood that we have unique needs and that they should take halachic concerns into consideration. To the point that statements like "if you keep the laws of nidah you wont be able to have children" became no longer legitimate. Baruch Hashem PUAH Institute has merited advancing peace among the house of the nation of Israel.
Through our conference the haredi community has merited to reveal that we have important poskim and that the Zionist religious community is not a community of whitewashers from which nothing can be learned. And that our community merited to recognize the haredi poskim and reveal that they are not just looking for stringencies for everything. Here too we merited advancing shalom bayit.
But there are people for whom unity among Israel bothers them. They are not prepared that we should "fold" to the haredi public. They interpret this desire as weakness. So they fight against us.
In its time we presented the issue before Rav Mordechai Eliyahu zt"l who established the Institute and directed us to hold the conference with all the appropriate modesty so that the rabbonim could participate: the women were invited, sitting alongside the men with a mechitza down the middle. The stage podium was placed n the middle and the presenters speaking to both sides.
There are large sreens on both sides so that both the men and the women can see the presenters, and everybody is permitted to publicly ask questions at the end of the presentation.
The rav said, "during the presentations the rules of tzniyus must be adhered to, so women cannot go up on stage before 600 men".
We knew this was not acceptable to all the rabbonim and to the whole community but we thought that this is the way to ensure that all the rabbonim could learn and advance the psak in this sensitive field.
Rav Borshtein also went to Rav Aharon Lichtenstein who thought this was a reasonable compromise for the desired goal.
What i did not hear this week:
  • Your conference is pornographic. Men coming to speak about the female body turnign her into an object (as if there are not gycelogical medical conferences in the country where they dont talk about those things and as if there are no advertisements that take advantage of the female body)
  • You are acting like the Germans in 44! They too did not allow the Jews to speak (the comparison is upsetting because we do not hate anybody and do not want to destroy anybody - suddenly it is ok to attack us with the Holocaust? I thought that is beyond the pale!)
  • You think women are stupid and cannot present or deal with couples (as Rav Menachem Borshtein encourages women to study medicine and specifically gynecology and has even advanced the situation that all the experts in Bikur Cholim are women, some of whom are religious. Along with that PUAH Institute invites over the course of the year women to present the rabbonim of the institute and at conferences for women.)
The attack was organized well by publicists: They approached all the Members of Knesset to protest against PUAH Institute, approaching governmental offices to shut the faucets and to not fund th Institute (anyway there is almost no funding given), approaching the prime minister himself to shut down the Institute and approaching the public to stop directing questions and to stop supporting the PUAH Institute.
They also turned to all the doctors invited to the conference and asked that they cancel their participation: they spoke with them about the exclusion of women and even threatened them that they would organize a consumer boycott against them.  There were also threats via hospital administrations and threats that if they do not fold they would be excluded from all the medical groups. Unfortunately many of the doctors canceled their participation, some for ideaological reasons and some saying they are sorry but better to be smart than to be right and that when the wave would pass they would be happy to participate again in the conferences of the Institute since they know that the goals are pure and not out of hatred.
They also turned to our secretarial staff saying that they must leave the Institute that treats them like sexual objects.
Behind this wave stands the Kolech organization and the Yisrael Chofshit organization and other organizations. the only common thread between all these organizations is that they are funded by the New Israel Fund. A day before the attack there was a meeting between the rabbonim of the Institute and between the heads of Kolech and they requested we cancel the conference and integrate women into it: also as presenters and also to cancel the separate seating that in their opinion goes against the law about "services and products" (which has been rejected by the legal advisor fo Machon PUAH). Because we did not fold, their attack comes at the most opportune time... after the story of Bet Shemesh and the buses, as if we are part of that story.
At the meeting, it was said to us that the goal of Kolech is lshem shamayim and for pure motives. It is difficult for me to understand how these statements line up with the fact that on that same day Kolech submitted to the Supreme Court against the chief rabbis who decided based on Shulchan Aruch to not allow single women to immerse in the mikva.
Why is Kolech interested in single women immersing in the mikva? Was it so they could go up to Har HaBayit or was it to allow premarital sex? Is that pure  motives? How can they ask rabbonim to pasken against Shulchan Aruch?
The goal was simply to destroy a worthy and important organization like Machon PUAH that receives thousands of requests over the course of the year without askign for any payment/ Requests day and night about marriage with family purity, pregnancy, birth, nursing, birth control, genetic problems, shidduchim for people with special needs, support and direction for people who wish to save their fertility after having had cancer discovered in them and for fertility!
Yes! Machone PUAH symbolizes life and the continuation of life of the nation of Israel and there are those who wish to destory all it symbolizes.
There is a cultural battle between Am Yisrael and between a country of all its citizens in which Judaism is pushed into a corner.
Because I am one of the organizers and one of the rabbinic responders for over 10 years, I cannot remain indifferent facing this attack. Therefore I announce to you all that the conference of Machon PUAH is not canceled and will not be canceled.
Rabbonim and (other) doctors will come to the conference and despite the attack and planned protest I call on everyone to come to the conference and show that we will not fold.
I also call upon you to support the Institute financially  as Machon PUAH is going through difficult days, so that we can double our efforts.
Doubling the efforts of this orga
nization is doubling the life of holiness in the nation of Israel!!
Chazak Chazak V'Nitchazek!
Binyamin David

(original Hebrew):
*לכל חברי וידידי,

כיון שהרבה אנשים ונשים פונים אלי ומבקשים הבהרה על המתקפה בתקשורת נגד
מכון פוע"ה אני אסביר את העניין.

זה כבר 12 שנה שמכון פועה מארגן כנס שנתי בו מוצגים בפני הקהל חידושים
ברפואה וההתייחסות של גדולי הרבנים.

בהתחלה הכנס היה מיועד לרבנים פוסקים על מנת שישלבו בפסיקה שלהם את
החידושים בהלכה. הכנסים הראשונים היו בבית כנסת ולכן הוזמנו רק רבנים
והמרצים היו גברים.

היה לנו ברור שאם נזמין מרצות לדבר מול רבנים חלק גדול מהרבנים לא יגיעו
לכנס ויצא שהפסדנו את מטרת הכנס: לשלב את הרפואה אצל הפוסקים מכל
המגזרים.

למרות שמכון פוע"ה הוקם ע"י הרב מנחם בורשטין שליט"א מרבני מרכז הרב,
המכון אינו סקטוריאלי והוא רואה את עצמו אחראי על קידום תחום רפואה והלכה
לכל המגזרים, כולל הציבור החרדי. ולכן הכנס אורגן על מנת שכל רבני הקשת
יוכלו להגיע.

עם הזמן הרבה נשות רבנים ביקשו להצטרף לכנס כך שפתחנו את הדלתות לכולם.
עברנו מבית הכנסת לאולם אולם נשארנו בקו של כנס רבנים כלומר בישיבה נפרדת
ועם מרצים גברים.

במשך 11 שנה העניין התקבל על ידי הציבור והרופאים בלי בעייה. בכל שנה
זכינו לציבור ענק, מעל 1500 משתתפים כך שהפכנו להיות הכנס הגדול בתחום
רפואה והלכה ואם בכלל.

כל הרופאים ביקשו לדבר בכנס ומי שלא הוזמן נעלב. תמיד לאחר הכנס קבלנו
תלונות מנהלי מחלקה שעשו חשבונות למה הוזמנו 3 רופאים מבית חולים X ומבית
חולים שלהם רק 2 ...

כפי שהסברתי מטרת הכנס הוא לקדם את הפסיקה ההלכתית ודרך זה גם לקדם את
בריאות הציבור והנשים בפרט. רבנים שעד כה לא התירו לעשות בדיקות בהריון
התחילו להתיר. הרבנים נהיו יותר קשובים לצרכים של הזוגות ונתנו להם
פתרונות מתאימים יותר...

הכנס הזה גם קרב את עולם הרפואה לעולם התורה ולציבור שלנו. פתאום הרופאים
הבינו שיש לנו צרכים מיוחדים ושיש להתחשב גם בענייני הלכה. שאמריה כגון
"אם תשמרי על הלכות נידה לא יהיו לך ילדים" הפכה בלתי לגיטימית ... ברוך
ה' מכון פוע"ה זכה לקדם את שלום הבית בעם ישראל.

דרך הכנס שלנו זכה הציבור החרדי לגלות שיש לנו פוסקים חשובים ושהציבור
הציוני דתי אינו ציבור של חפיפניקים שאין מה ללמוד ממנו. והציבור שלנו
זכה להכיר את הפוסקים החרדים ולגלות שהם אינם סתם מחמירים על כל דבר. גם
פה זכינו לקדם את שלום הבית.

אלא שיש אנשים שהאחדות בעם ישראל מפריע להם. הם לא מוכנים "שנתקפל" מול
הציבור החרדי. הם מפרשים את השאיפה לשלום כחולשה. ולכן הם נלחמים בנו.

הצגנו בזמנו את העניין בפני מו"ר הרב מרדכי אליהו זצ"ל שהיה ממייסדי
המכון והוא הנחה אותנו לקיים את כנס עם כל הצניעות הראויה כך שכל הרבנים
יוכלו להגיע: הנשים מוזמנות, יושבות לצד הגברים כאשר ישנה מחיצה באמצע,
הבימה ממוקדת באמצע והמרצים מדברים אל שני הציבורים. ישנם מסכים גדולים
משני הצדדים כך שגם הגברים וגם הנשים רואים את המצגות וכל אחד רשאי לשאול
שאלות בתום ההרצאות ברם קול. הרב זצ"ל אמר "צריך לשמור על הצניעות בזמן
ההרצאות ולכן נשים לא יעלו על הבמה מול 600 גברים".
ידענו שהדבר אינו מקובל על כל הרבנים ועל כל הציבור אולם חשבנו שזאת הדרך
להבטיח שכל הרבנים יוכלו ללמוד ולקדם את הפסיקה בתחום רגיש זה.
הרב בורשטין פנה אף לרב אהרן ליכטנשטיין שסבר שזו פשרה מידתית וסבירה מול
המטרה הנעלה.

מה לא שמעתי השבוע?
- הכנס שלכם הוא פורנוגרפיה. גברים מתקבצים לדבר על גוף האישה שהפך
לאובייקט. (כאילו אין כנסים רפואיים בגינקולוגיה בארץ בהם מדברים על אותם
דברים וכאילו אין פרסומות פוגעות שמנצלות את גוף האשה).

- אתם מתנהגים כמו הגרמנים ב 44! גם הם לא נתנו ליהודים לדבר. (עצם
ההשוואה מקוממת כיון שאנחנו לא שונאים אף אחד ולא רוצים להשמיד אף אחד
(פתאום מותר לנגח אותנו עם השואה! חשבתי שזה פסול?!).

- אתם חושבים שהנשים טיפשיות שאינן מסוגלות להרצות ולטפל בזוגות (כאשר
הרב מנחם בורשטין מעודד נשים ללמוד רפואה ובפרט גינקולוגיה ואף זכה לקדם
שכל המתמחות בביקור חולים הן נשים וחלקם דתיות. חוץ מזה מכון פוע"ה מזמין
במשך כל השנה נשים להרצות בפני רבני המכון או בכנסים לנשים).

המתקפה מאורגנת הטב ע"י יחצנים: פנייה לכל חברי הכנסת למחות כנגד מכון
פוע"ה, פנייה למשרדי הממשלה לסגור את כל הברזים ולא לתקצב את המכון (
ממילא בפועל אין כמעט תקציבים), פנייה לראש הממשלה בכבודו ובעצמו לסגור
את המכון, ופנייה לציבור להפסיק לתמוך במכון פוע"ה.

הם גם פנו לכל הרופאים שהיו מוזמנים בכנס בבקשה לבטל את השתתפותם בכנס:
הם דברו אתם על הדרת נשים (שמעתם על זה?) וכן הפעילו עליהם איומים
שיארגנו נגדם חרם צרכנים. היו גם איומים דרך מנהלי בתי החולים וכן איום
שאם הם לא יתקפלו הם יודרו מכל איגודים רפואיים.
לצערנו חלק גדול מן הרופאים ביטלו את השתתפותם חלק טענו שזה מטעמים
אידאולוגיים ולחלק באמירה שהם מצטערים אבל לפעמים "עדיף להיות חכמם
מצודק" וכאשר הגל יעבור הם ישמחו להשתתף בכנסים של המכון כיון שהם יודעים
שכל המטרות שלנו טהורות לשם משים ולא שנאה.

פננו גם למזכירות שלנו באמירה שהן חייבות לעזוב את המכון שמתייחס אליהם
כאובייקט מיני ...

מאחורי כל הגל הזה עומד "ארגון קולך" ו "ישראל חופשית" ועוד ארגונים
שהמחנה המשותף שלהם הוא מימון מהקרן החדשה לישראל. יום לפני התקפה היתה
פגישה בין רבני המכון לבין רשאי ארגון קולך והם ביקשו מאתנו לבטל את הכנס
או לשלב בו נשים: גם מרצות וגם לבטל את הישיבה הנפרדת. הם שלחו לנו חוות
דעת משפטית שלפיה הישיבה הנפרדת היא נגד החוק (דבר שנדחה ע"י היועץ
המשפטי של מכון פוע"ה). וכיון שלא התקפלנו באה ההתקפה בעיתוי הכי הכי...
אחרי סיפור בית שמש והאוטובוסים כאילו אנחנו חלק מן הסיפור הזה.

בפגישה נאמר לנו שכל המטרות של קולך היא לשם שמים ועל הטהרת הקודש. קשה
לי להבין איך האמירות האלו מתישרות עם העובדה שבאותו יום קולך הגיש בג"ץ
כנגד הרבנים הראשיים שקבעו על פי מה שנפסק בשולחן ערוך שאין להטביל
רווקות המקווה.
למה קולך מבקש להתיר שרווקות תטבולנה במקווה? כדי לעלות להר הבית או כדי
להכשיר את יחסים מחוץ לנישואין? זאת טהרת הקודש?!
איך אפשר לבקש מרבנים ראשיים לפסוק כנגד שולחן ערוך מפורש?

בקיצור... המטרה היא פשוטה להרוס מפעל יקר וחשוב כמו מכון פוע"ה שמקבל
אלפי פניות במשך כל השנה וכל זה בלי לבקש תשלום. פניות ביום ובלילה על
נשואים של טהרת המשפחה, הריון, לידה הנקה, אמצעי מניעה, בעיות גנטיות,
שידוכים לאנשים עם צרכים מיוחדים, תמיכה והכוונה לשימור פוריות לאנשים
שגילו להם סרטן (לא עלינו ולא עליכם) ובוודאי פוריות.
כן! מכון פוע"ה מסמל את החיים ואת המשכו של עם ישראל ויש אנשים שבקשים
להרוס את המכון ואת מה שהוא מסמל.
יש כאן מלחמת תרבות בין עם ישראל לבין מדינת כל אזרחיה כאשר היהידות נדחקת
לפינה.

כיון שאני אחד מארגנים של הכנס ואחד הרבנים המשיבים, למעלה מ 10 שנים,
איני יכול להישאר אדיש מול המתקפה הזאת. לכן אני מודיע לכולם שהכנס של
מכון פוע"ה אינו מבוטל ולא יתבטל. רבנים ורופאים (אחרים) יגיעו לכנס
ולמרות המתקפה אני קורא לכווווולם להגיע לכנס ולהראות שאנחנו לא מתקפלים!

אני גם קורה לכם לתמוך כלכלית במכון פוע"ה כדי שנוכל להכפיל את פעילותו.

להכפיל את את פעילות המכון זה להכפיל חיים של קדושה בעם ישראל !!!!

חזק חזק ונתחזק !!!!

בנימין דוד

נא להעביר את המייל לכמה שיותר אנשים, תודה

--
בנימין דוד

Benjamin DAVID
רב משיב במכון פוע"ה

Institut Pouah - Jérusalem

טל: Tel: 02-6515050
פקס: Fax: 02-6517501

16 comments:

  1. Just sent them a donation. Such an irony that they are being attacked as a "charedi" institution because they aren't.

    ReplyDelete
  2. That's a very excellent job of putting the real facts before the public - as always, יישר כחך, Rafi.

    I do want to repeat a comment I made on the earlier post, though (slightly edited). This whole story certainly does sound like this is part of what could be termed a "witch hunt," based on bad and biased reporting, and outside organizations with an anti-religious agenda. And it is very sad that a good and worthwhile institution is suffering.

    However, I think there's another point here. If women presenters are not included in a conference because of religious sensibilities - even if it only happens at one particular conference - that will have a tendency to reduce the professional utility of the women involved. Carry that over to the army, advertisements, and whatever other field you care to mention, and one should be able to see why the secular world, women in particular, feel threatened by increasing humrot with regards to women and modesty, combined with the increasing size and role of the religious population in institutions such as the army and the medical profession.

    Although this particular event seems like a very poor example, it still illustrates why the larger concern in the secular world with the place of women in the religious world is a legitimate concern from their point of view, and not just blindly anti-religious propaganda. And we'd have to be blind to say that there hasn't been a trend to the right in the matters in both the haredi and the dati worlds, at least in Israel.

    Now, this particular conference, and this particular organization seem to be a very poor target for this concern. But as more and more datim and haredim become integrated into the general society, I think it is fair for the general society to start asking "if we give in here, then what?" If we give in at this conference, what will happen when the religious professionals among us demand that no women speak at another conference? What will happen when whole battalions refuse to serve under female officers or listen to female instructors?

    I don't think there are easy answers for these questions. But I do think that these questions provide at least one response to the answer that some people give about humras - what difference does it make if I want to keep a humra? The difference it makes is that when enough people start keeping certain humras, and enough people start confusing humras with halacha (as the proponents of segregated buses have sometimes done), it makes the process of dealing with genuine conflicts between halacha and the norms of the general society around us that much more difficult.

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  3. Yasher Koach for posting this. I feel bad for the doctors involved who got unintentionally tarnished by this whole mess.

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  4. Thank you for posting this and translating it! I plan to forward it to many people I know who have been misled about Puah and the conference.

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  5. Thanks for Posting Rafi.

    I know the Rabbinic Advisor to Machon Puah, Rabbi Weitzman who lives here in Modi'in and is the Rav of the shul I davened in when I lived in that part of the city.

    I have heard women speakers at rav Weitzman's shul, so I am certain that he doesn't regard excluding women speakers as a Halachic requirement, rather it is a clear compromize to allow the maximum number of people to benifit from this very important conference.

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  6. A few small things:

    LI - who have been misled about Puah and the conference.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "misled"? The only story I saw asserted that Machon Puah isn't permitting qualified women doctors to present at their conference. And that is apparently a fact.

    shidduchim for people with special needs
    שידוכים לאנשים עם צרכים מיוחדים

    I'm not quite sure what he is referring to here. Does he mean shidduchim in general, or helping make shidduchim for those who have known problems regarding producing children?

    For 11 years that was acceptable to the public and to the doctors with no problems.

    11 years? Ha! For 60 years the IDF has had female singers periodically without any problems :-)

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  7. and I repeat, if you don't want to play by democratic rules, then don't take gov't funds.

    It's not a lot of money they say.

    So don't take it.

    But you can't have it both ways.

    It's a lot like the people who knock israel at every turn and have no problem using the health care and roads and subsidies and social programs etc.. but god forbid they should show some hakoras hatov

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  8. To the Way
    Puah has helped 100's of couples and individuals. I know, as my wife is a nurse who has worked with many "Puah" people. Why on earth should they not take money from the government, when they help all types (Chiloni and religious) Israeli citizens. Who really cares if a few female doctors cannot talk in front of the rabbis. If these qualified female doctors ( I'm sure there are many)really feel there advise and knowledge is so important, let them tape it and most rabbis would not have a problem listening to the tape and then call them if they had any questions.There are many different ways for the female doctors opinions to be heard.

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  9. anon,

    we have competing ideologies.

    You clearly don't understand where I am coming from because if you did you would recognize that having other ways for women to get the word out is not good enough.

    Just like the women in the audience have to pass notes if they want to ask a question but men can use their voice.

    All of which is fine, (not really but whatever) if you're privately funded.

    But equal rights is just that, equal. I don't have equal rights if others are being discriminated against.

    And even deeper, I believe that this form of sexism (and racism) can and will ultimately destroy Israel if not battled against.

    And since I live here and would rather not see Israel be destroyed.

    My ideology informs me that equal rights and creating more separations between church and state are the issues which will make Israel stronger.

    It might not mean anything to you, but either Israel is a democracy or it isn't. And the hallmark of a democracy is equal rights. Just voting does not make a democracy.

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  10. Way - is there never a justifiable situation for an all mens or all womens event?

    According to Machon PUAH's statement, almost all their events and conferences include women presenters. This single conference is the only one in which they dont, and never have, invited female presenters. They have a reason for it.

    Is there never a situation in which having only men or only women is justifiable?

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  11. Way,
    Equality at least i.m.h.o., doesn't mean equal in everything. Can I walk into the ladies toilet at Ben-Gurion because they are funded by the Gov. why not? You're taking my rights away!!!All around the world, their are separate things for ladies and men. This does not necessarily make them non-democratic.I too live in Israel, and have no problem not being invited to something because I am a male.
    Bottom line in Israel, do women have the same rights as man?? I think they do , thank G-D.

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  12. Rafi - I think you are right - except that in the context of the demand for segregated buses, the kol isha incidents in the army, and the removal of woman from advertisements in Jerusalem, the non-haredi/hardal public is entitled to wonder where they will end up having to draw the line. Puah and this conference may have been a poor choice to make this point, and an innocent victim, but as Rabbi Slifkin phrased it in a different context, there is an element of "chickens coming home to roost" in this. It's just a shame the chickens are doing their thing on a good organization like Puah.

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  13. rafi,

    let's use meah sheariim sukkah as an example.

    They put up separate exits and entrances and women walk on one side of the road and men on the other.

    Despite the supreme court saying this is illegal.

    I have no problem if they want to have separate seating. Let them go renta a plot of land and put up a sukkah, using private funds on private land.

    The same is true of the busses.

    Go build a privately funded bus line if you want separate seating.

    I have no problem with separate seating in private places, like your privately funded shul or school or event.

    I am even ok with publicly funded events just for me or just for women... after all, this is the real world and there is a lot of grey and at times there are events where people need to feel safe and still be informed.

    HOWEVER, despite Pua's good works, to have an event which includes women but they cannot talk, they need to pass notes to have them read by a man, and equal professionals cannot speak, while not being the most clear cut example, like the bus issue, certainly raises the issue of gender equality.

    Perhaps they should have a conference just for men and another one just for women. But to have women sitting there silent... well if you want a conference like that than don't take public funds. You can do it, just privately.
    But I argue for a separation of church and state. Which I believe protects the rights of religious and secular.

    And to Anon,

    To compare mixed seating to protecting an individuals right to privacy in the bathroom is just silly at best and downright dishonest at worst.

    Do women have equal rights in Israel? for the most part yes. But right now Israel, like jews worldwide and for thousands of years, is majority non-orthodox. If we are having these battles now when the charedii sector is, let's say 10%, what will happen in 10 years when they are 20% ?

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  14. To the Way.
    I'm only referring to the Puah event and nothing else. My point is , is that equality doesn't mean everything is always equal. Just because ladies cannot speak in front of a group of men is not reason enough to stop government help, when they help all people including and especially women.

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  15. Then perhaps pua should have separate events for men and women altogether. But to have women present as second class citizens is not acceptable on govt funds.

    Explain to me again why it's ok for men to talk but not women?

    And since most communication is non verbal, maybe the burqa women are right.

    Lastly, when a gov't funded organization has a conference where men in the audience can speak and women, on the other side of the mechitza, have to pass notes up to the front to be asked by a man, you can't just say that this is just about pua and has no connection to all the other instances where extremists are encroaching on equal rights while using govt funds.

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  16. I think Machon Puah is a victim of the old saw, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

    Machon Puah itself is a non-discriminatory organization that does wonderful work and has conferences that are open to both men and women. In an effort to spread their knowledge and good deeds amongst the Chareidi community, they arranged one conference that would meet Chareidi standards with respect to the presenters and audience behaviour. Because of the current climate (largely self-created by the actions of the Chareidi community), Machon Puah, which was only trying to be sensitive, has had its reputation unfairly besmirched.

    I wish Machon Puah nothing but Hatzlacha in their endevours.

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