rafi,

there is a difference between a witch hunt and reporting the news.

When at what is billed as a major conference, whose sole focus is women's health issues, and major presenters pull out at the last moment due to the last minute discovery that women had been banned, that is news worth reporting.

if reporting the news makes someone feel persecuted, than perhaps they should stop doing what they're doing instead of blaming the publication of their actions.

Rafi,

I don't know how old you are, but if you are old enough to remember think of the American South in the 1950's. Same arguments about how a community can run according to its standards, and about how "our (N-words)" are happy with the system and it is only a bunch of "outside agitators" causing trouble. So much for the general world.

As a matter of halacha, neither individuals nor communities have the right to practice chumrot that lead to kulot in other areas, including bein adam l'chaveiro. Nor that lead the machmir to be choshesh l'kesheirim. And people have an obligation both to offer tochacha if there is any chance of its being accepted, and to prevent the sort of ziyuf hatorah that occurs when people assert that the Torah requires exclusion of women from a conference on gynecology.

To comment on the first part:

Things are getting out of hand. Y? 1) Probably b/c the media is stirring things up (probably more than just probably). 2) As the Rambam says, there's the golden mean, the golden path. The exclusion bubble or dam has burst. And in order to return to the Golden mean, there is a need felt to go all the way to the other side (first). I'm not saying that it justifies it, just observing that this seems to be the reaction. Eventually (hopefully sooner rather than later), there needs to be a 'Moonstruck' reaction of "Snap out of it" to stop people's extreme reactions (on both sides).

How am I supposed to explain this charade to my Gentile colleagues when I go to a meeting at Jersey General Hospital tomorrow?

How can I tell someone who is not a חרדי Jew (or not even Jewish at all)that a female OB/GYN, no matter how eminent she may be in her profession, is being considered a non-person by her colleagues?

This really is a case of השם ירחם, and I despair of my Israeli professional colleagues.

It's a bit of an exaggeration to say that the women are being considered "non-persons" by her colleagues.

It's just the conference sponsors feel that having them speak publicly would limit the impact that their organization will be able to have on the religious world.

Machon Puah is a fabulous organization.

I consider ir unfortunate that they have to adopt this polict, but it is worth noting that Machon Puah has broad support across the spectrum.

I will note that when I last attended their conference, twelve years ago, I do no recall there having been any female presenters.

The speakers alternated between apparently non-religious medical professionals and Rabbonim.

Like the bus, and unlike the Mir, this was a case where a charedi org invited secular professionals to lecture to them but were not candid about the the refusal to invite female colleagues (see the latest post in the Orot Banot FB forum). That's what dismisses your contention that this is now a witchhunt. If this was a 100% charedi conference, complete with all charedi doctors lecturing to a all charedi audience, you might have a point. If Puah invited these doctors and informed them at the outset that women doctors would not be invited to lecture, and they accepted the invite anyway, and then backed out when the media caught wind, you might also have a point.

Since this is yet another case of charedim thinking they can benefit from secular education without having to reciprocate basic common courtesy-yah, that's going to irritate some people.

I'm not sure why they couldn't have just invited women lecturers for women only audiences.

from what I understabd, Machon Puah is not a haredi organization. I understand they are mostly Dati Leumi, but they want the ocnference to attract haredi people as well

so these guys can look at lady's hoohas but can't hear what comes out of the hole in their head?

yeah, that makes sense.

The Way:

The conference is not for doctors.

The presentations are for the general public and Rabbonim.

Mechon Puah responded publicly to this witch hunt. What they basically said is as follows:
1) This conference is one yearly conference aimed at the religious community (Rabbis, kallah teachers etc)- not geared to doctors.
2) In order to have the conference as inclusive as possible (in terms of those who come to hear, not in terms of presenters) they consulted with Rav Mordechai Eliyahu (years ago) and he instructed them to only have male presenters. I presume that this has been going on quite some time, as Rav Eliyahu is dead a few years. I presume that this has been going on for the past 15-17 years, ever since they started having this conference.
3) They have other conferences in which there are female presenters - it is only *this* conference that does not have female presenters for the reason stated above.

so men who are Not doctors are going to a conference about women's gynecological issues and can't hear from a woman.

Yup, that clears it right up.

So they can hear about their hoohas from other guys.

Do they serve liquor at this convention? it sounds like my poker game.

Commenter Abbi:

this was a case where a charedi org invited secular professionals to lecture to them but were not candid about the the refusal to invite female colleagues
1) This is incorrect. Puah is not a charedi organization. It was founded by Rav Menachem Burstein, who is 100% in the DL camp. Kipa sruga and all.
2) This conference never had female lecturers. Not this year nor in previous years. Machon Puah did not mislead anyone on this (to the best of my knowledge, and I have yet to see any evidence to dispute this fact).

If Puah invited these doctors and informed them at the outset that women doctors would not be invited to lecture, and they accepted the invite anyway, and then backed out when the media caught wind, you might also have a point.
3) As I wrote previously, Mechon Puah did not try to hoodwink anyone. The conference is going on the same way it has been in the past - male lecturers for a mixed (separate seating) audience. The lecturers could have inquired or asked lecturers from previous years - they chose not to do so and are only backing out due to media pressure - none of them gives a damn but for the negative press.

I'm not sure why they couldn't have just invited women lecturers for women only audiences.

4) They can and do invite women lecturers for a female - and a male - audience. But not in this yearly conference. Other conferences and lectures that they sponsor have both male and female lecturers.

The Way:

Next you will be demanding that shiurim in Hilchos Niddah be given by menstruating women?

I guarantee that no pictures that show even an inch of a womans covered areas will be shown, nor will any vulgar language be used. These topics are treated with utmost respect and are not treat with frivolity and lightheadedness.

to be fair, Way didnt say there would be vulgarity or images of private parts displayed. he pointed out the irony of the conference talking about womens "female issues" while not willing to hear a woman presenter. It is ironic (and I mentioned the irony in the post as well).

Rafi:

If you look at the flyer you can see that there are many male infertility issues that are being discussed as well. Fertility is the domain of gynecologists - hence it is a "gynecology conference".

It is not solely a "women's health" conference.

Moshe - I have not see the flyer. where can i see it?
What you say is interesting, as I, and probably many others as well, never thought of "gynecology" as being inclusive of mens issues as well. the sub-category of fertility, sure, but the title is gynecology, not fertility.

Israeli doctors withdraw from fertility conference over exclusion of women
Pua, an group offering gynecological and fertility counseling in accordance to Jewish law, notifies female medical professionals they will not be able to speak, participate at the event.

By Yael Bir-Katz
Tags: Israel facebook Israel health Jerusalem Jewish law


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Two prominent Israeli doctors canceled their participating in a conference on fertility and Jewish law organized by a religious medical advocacy group over the apparent exclusion of women speakers from the event, Haaretz learned on Thursday.

The event is organized by Pua, an organization offering gynecological and fertility counseling in adherence with Jewish law, or Halakah, and is planned to take place next week in Jerusalem. Pua is a public group that regularly receives state funds.


About 2% of babies, a total of 3,200 a year, are born prematurely.

Photo by: Nir Keidar

However, the conference came under severe criticism on Wednesday, after it became known that organizers informed female gynecological and fertility professionals that they would not be able to speak at the event nor participate in any of its panels.

In response, a Facebook campaign was launched to protest the exclusion of women from a gynecological conference, one which apparently brought about the withdrawal of two of its speakers from the event: Prof Yuval Yaron from Ichilov Hospital’s Lis Maternity Hospital and Prof Uriel Elchalal of Hadassah University Hospital in Jerusalem.

In a letter to the session’s organizers, Yaron said that “the assertion that women cannot be invited as lecturers in a conference on women’s medicine is both professionally absurd and represents an exclusion of women in the full sense of the word.”

Moshe, you really don'e see a difference?

Hilchos niddah and gynecological issues are 2 completely different topics. Therefore, one ought to include women who can better and more factual and anecdotal explainations of the workings of their "hoohas", whereas hilchos niddah requires none of that.

yay shaya!

you rock

i luv that hoohas has become the official term :-)

Rafi:
Here is a new version of the flier:
http://www.puah.org.il/UserFiles/File/%D7%9B%D7%A0%D7%A1%20%D7%AA%D7%A9%D7%A2%D7%91/Fixed4%20Hazmana%20Puah.pdf

As you can see, there are diverse topics, such as:
Prostate Problems and How to Overcome Them (I know, lousy translation)
How to Prevent Hereditary Cancers
Preparing the Family for the Birth of a Disabled Child
Testicle Transplant: Dream or Reality?
Testicle Transplant: Who is the Father?

And there are more speeches as well, some dealing with "women's issues", others not.
The lectures being given by doctors that deal with women's issues:
1) New Treatments in Treating Women with Varicose Veins
2) Gynecologic Surgeries with the Da-Vinci Robot
3) Choosing the Correct Birth Control Pill
4) Nutritional Supplements in Pregnancy: Good or Bad?
5) Older Singles: How to Remain Fertile

Of these 5 lectures, only 2 of them deal with gynecological issues (3 and 5).

No one deals with the genitalia of any women.

This is a massive blow-out-of-proportion.

Hilchos niddah and gynecological issues are 2 completely different topics. Therefore, one ought to include women who can better and more factual and anecdotal explainations of the workings of their "hoohas", whereas hilchos niddah requires none of that.


That is exactly what the organizers of this conference want to prevent. Anecdotal explanations are not needed - proven science is what they want to pass on.

Anecdotes can be had from your mothers sisters cousins friends sister-in-law who heard a story from her neighbor about how OCP's are terrible and can cause cancer (or that they are fantastic and can cure stomachaches). That is not needed or wanted at such a conference.

However, the conference came under severe criticism on Wednesday, after it became known that organizers informed female gynecological and fertility professionals that they would not be able to speak at the event nor participate in any of its panels.


So you found another falsehood in Haaretz? Why is that the fault of Machon Puah? The statement is 100% FALSE. Machon Puah did not alert anyone - they simply responded to emails sent to them by women's groups demanding that women lecture there. The response was not sent to the lecturers - it was sent to those who inquired. Haaretz has no problem falsifying the facts in order to suit their agenda.

ummmm moshe?

did you read the article from the newspaper?

say what you want, but #1 - it sounded like the presenters were blindsided by the lack of women presenters.

#2 - how about we agree that you can discriminate against anyone you want, not just women but have at it against blacks and browns and yellows and kids as well if you want, so long as you do it on your dime in your home. But here we have an organization accepting state funds.

the state, in any democracy, is there for equal rights. That is inherent in democracy. democracy is more than just voting for officials. So if you and your organizations dont want to follow democratic rights then dont take money from the state, be it a school, a medical conference or a bus line. Get a private school, a private bus line and private medical conferences and get drunk on discrimination and know that you are protected from the sound of a strange woman's voice.

cause you know she wants you as much as you want her. All you gots to do is take her, and she wants it, that's why she opened her mouth in the first place. she's only talking cuz you haven't put anything in there to shut her up yet.


or is that too much?

yes, quoting the presenters who backed out is an obvious left wing smear.

how dare they quote the people who backed out, secular scum is what they are, with an obvios anti haredi agenda.

It does sound like this is part of what could be termed a "witchunt," based on bad and biased reporting. With that, I agree.

However, I think there's a larger point here. If women presenters are not included in a professional conference because of religious sensibilities - even if it only hapens at one particular conference - that will have a tendency to reduce the professional utility of the women involved. Carry that over to the army, advertisements, and whatever other field you want to mention, and one should be able to see why the secular world, women in particular, feel threatened by increasing humrot with regards to women and modesty. Whether the humrot are initiated by haredim or religious zionists, the situation with this conference illustrates why the larger concern in the secular media with the place of women in the religious world is a legitimate concern from their point of view, and not just blindly anti-religious propaganda. And we'd have to be blind to say that there hasn't been a trend to the right in the matters in both the haredi and the dati worlds, at least in Israel.

http://rotter.net/User_files/forum/4f0ad1a5376c52c3.pdf

תגובת מכון פוע"ה לתקשורת בנוגע לכנס השנתי ה-12: סיבת היעדרות מרצות בכנס
בכל שנה בפרשת שמות מקיים מכון פוע"ה כנס בנושאי רפואה והלכה. הכנס משלב
בתוכו שיעורי תורה מפי גדולי הרבנים, וסקירות מקצועיות מטובי הרופאים
המומחים בתחומם .
הכנס מיועד בעיקר לרבנים ורבניות, מדריכי חתנים ומדריכות כלות, בלניות, ואנשי
ונשות מקצוע המתעניינים ברפואה והלכה .
זכינו שבשנים האחרונות משתתפים בכנס למעלה מאלף וחמש מאות גברים ונשים,
מכל גווני המגזר הדתי והחרדי .

מטרת הכנס
מטרת הכנס היא להביא בפני הציבור המשיב בענייני הלכה, וכן בפני אנשי מקצוע
ויעוץ, חידושים רפואיים והלכתיים העשויים לסייע להם בעבודתם. זכינו במהלך
השנים, שבזכות כינוסי המכון, הפסיקה ההלכתית לקחה בחשבון את חידושי
הרפואה העדכניים, וקידמה את בריאות האישה גם במגזר הדתי והחרדי .
לאור מטרות אלו, ישנה חשיבות מרובה שרבנים ואנשי מקצוע מכל המגזרים
בחברה הדתית והחרדית, יגיעו לכנס, ולא ידירו עצמם מההשתתפות בו. מי שרגיש
לציבור, מודע לכך שרבים ממשתתפי הכנס, אינם משתתפים בכינוסים רפואיים
אחרים, עקב תפיסת צניעות שונה, ורואים בכך בעיה הלכתית קשה .
לכן, הורה לנו הראשון לציו , ן הגאון הרב מרדכי אליהו זצ , ל" לפתוח את הכנס בפני
גברים ונשים כאחד באופן שווה, אולם בישיבה נפרדת, וכן, שהמרצים בכנס זה יהיו
גברים. הוראה זו גובתה על ידי כל גדולי הרבנים בציבור הדתי לאומי והחרדי .אמת בפרסום
ברצוננו לציין, שבניגוד לפרסומים, הנשים יושבות ישירות מול המרצים בדיוק כמו
הגברים, והבימה ממוקמת במרכז. לנשים, כמו לגברים, שמורה הזכות לשאול
שאלות ברמקול את המרצה .
יש להדגיש, שבשאר הכינוסים והשיעורים של מכון פוע"ה, משתתפות גם רופאות
ונשות מקצוע כמרצות .
צר לנו, שבמקום לראות את הקידום העצום בבריאות האישה בכלל ובמגזר הדתי
והחרדי בפרט, לו זכינו בעקבות הכנסים, יש גורמים המנצלים בצורה צינית
ותוקפנית את האווירה הציבורית השוררת כיום, ומנסים לקדם את האג'נדה שלהם
על גבו של מכון פוע" .ה

מכון פוע"ה ימשיך לשרת, ללא תשלום, את אלפי הפונים מכל קצוות הציבור, ללא
הבדל גזע, דת ומין .
בברכה רבה -
הרב מנחם בורשטין