I don't have any easy answers for you, but I applaud you for taking the time and making a conscious choice, rather than just "going with the flow".

I am D"L (definitely on the more modern side) and my impression is that many pple who choose the charedi way are doing it for social/hashkafa reasons, not necessarily for halachic reasons. Meaning, I know plenty of serious D'L who are just as makpid halachically as the average charedi, don't have TV but send their kids to mamad torani because they want their kids to be able to take bagruyot and go to college, have a career, etc.

FWIW, I think the most important thing is not cutting your kids off from the opportunity to make just as good a living as you do. So, I vote for D'L.

What about Chorev in Y-m?

Being Chareidi is taking the easy way out:
1) You let your "gadol" do all your thinking for you
2) You have a simpler wardrobe
3) When given a choice between equally legitimate lenient and strict positions, you always check the strict ones.
4) You get to riot on Shabbos, attack policemen and call it a mitzvah.

Being Dati Leumi is much more challenging. You must strictly observe the mitzvos while being a productive member of secular society. You must always keep in mind the kavannah that you are contributing to and benefiting from the holiness of Eretz Yisrael. You have to care about society around you, not just the folks in your ghetto.
However, you also get to riot but not on Shabbos and against soldiers, not policemen.

regarding the money collectors: i think that it simply that many chareidim don't have life insurance or premium health insurance. so when daddy dies, the family is pennyless. i work in a high tech firm that gave me a very good deal on life insurance. another advantage of getting the education.

you seem to be leaning to dati leumi, and each person should choose what they feel is right. if that is what seems right to you, and it looks like it from the way you wrote the post, then you should feel comfortable going that route.

there is no need to be charedi just because everyone else is or that seems to be the trend.

why do many come on aliyah and become charedi here? I think they identify with it more. even if being charedi in america does not mean the same as being charedi in Israel. People mostly consider orthodox in america to be a range of what we tend to call charedi. This is despite the fact that the average charedi in america has no similarity to the average charedi here.

A good example is some recent comments on this blog here about Ramat Shilo in RBS. someone, or a few people, used ramat shilo as an example of how dati leumi could not fil even ramat shilo and charedim moved in. Sure a few charedim moved in who everyone would consider charedi, but the rest? just because someone wears a black kipa means they are charedi? Many of those are for more religious zionist than charedi. yet we often call them charedi because we dont knoiw how else to define that type of lifestyle. it is not really israeli charedi but also not really dati leumi.

I have a lot to say on this (for example, why should you have to choose? Just decide on what practices you will follow, without worrying that some are characterized as chareidi, and others as D"L). However, I'll give you my bottom line feeling on it:

If you decide to "join" the chareid velt, you'll have to toe the line, or be risk being ostracized. There seems to be little room for differences in practice. This is enforced by schools, in that each one has its own set of rules of what the family must do (or not do) to ensure admission, and continued enrollment, of its children there.

If you decide to "join" D"L, there may be pressure to do certain things (most likely not, but there is for some things; it mostly amounts to peer pressure, which is not unique among D"L, or even among Jews), but they won't be enforced. For example, if you decide that Hallel should not be said and Tachanun should not be skipped on Yom Ha'atzmaut, so you make sure to find a minyan which davens accordingly, you may get some funny looks (probably not, since noone is really watching what you're doing if you're D"L), but you won't be an outcast because of it.

In short, in chareidi society, you're treated like an child, while in D"L society, you're treated like an adult. (You may wish to recognize my bias and filter it out, but I stand by my point, extreme analogy notwithstanding.)

Of course, you may be usd to being treated like a child, since you do live in Israel. :-)

(not RafiG)

I think you have things a bit mixed up here. You are choosing whether to educate your children to be Haredi or not depending on whether you will need to buy them an apartment when they get married? Don't you have an opinion as to whether the Haredi way of life is correct (for you or at all)?

I am sorry if I sound insulting (your posting got me rather annoyed), but I think you need to sort out your own philosophy and priorities before you work out how to fund your children's marriages and not the other way round.

Then you will be able to stop worrying about whether a certain sub-stream of schools has "serious students", where your children need to go to be "acceptable to all communities" and hopefully they will be "cream of the crop" as you choose to define them and not because somebody else said so.

I went through a similar process. I think you need to answer the following questions for yourself:
1)Do you value high-level, secular education? even if it is not strictly for parnasah?
2)how do you want your kids to relate to the state?
3)how do you want them to relate to other jews who aren't as religious?
4)what is your view on das torah versus independent thinking?

of course there are many other issues - but these are important ones to consider. keep in mind that DL is far from monolithic. There are many flavors that span the religious/political spectrum. chardal is very similar to charedi in terms of the answer to most of those questions (including how to relate to the state). good luck!
5)

I want to thank the people who bothered to answer. I would like to address my comments to Rafi who I so annoyed. I feel there are benefits to both communities and that is why i do not know what to do. But having to purchase an apartment with money I may not have is certainly something I am not prepared to do. I am glad people are being honest and are not telling me not to worry that the system may change and therefore go the charedei route. I just wonder how it is so many people choose this route with out being concerned how they finance the apartments like I said perhaps I dont have enough betachon.

What bothers me is why people look at me as being strange or crazy because of where I send my kids to why is it that both camps are so separated from each other. Lets try to bridge the gap and have mutual respect.

Kol tuv,

YS

The question you have to ask is - do you want your kids to go to college and earn a living, or do you want to be setting them on a path of being financially dependent on you forever (and can you afford that?)

Great Post!

I think that Rafi (not G) is wrong.
Let's say that personally one's haskafos matched charedi more than DL, but practically speaking joining the charedi community would be unhealthy because of the major problems in that community e.g. poverty, impossible shidduch and post shidduch support demands, etc.
That combined with the fact that the writer and many like him differ on some key issues with charedi (just as they differ with DL). Certainly, practical issues should come into play.

A major, if not the major, reason to associate more with DL is the fact that you can be yourself without looking over your shoulder. (Part of that being yourself is being fiscally responsible.)

I live in Ramat Shilo, and I love it.
Sure, it isn't perfect. There are some things about the environment that I'd like to be a bit more religious. But, overall the communal attitude is open, serious, non judgemental Dati-Leumi-Torani not negative about people who associate with charedi, serious about Torah, kind, nice, friendly. I can be myself here (in some ways a little bit charedi, in some ways more open). I am friendly with a range of types here. I don't care too much about what other people think, and the fact is that people here respect where other people are religiously/politically/ethnically.

I vote stay with Dati Leumi. Give a strong chinuch at home. Try to find a school where your children will have a strong chevra with positive attitude to learning, tzenius, not getting into destructive behavior.
When the kids are young you can send them to the moderate American type charedi places, just make sure they have a path where they can pursue career and a normal lifestyle.
B'hatzlacha. Thanks for bringing up the issue which many of us have and are struggling with.

I think many Americans choose Charedi because it's similar to their Agudas Yisrael affiliation in chu"l, and because they prefer a community that externally keeps halacha more completely.

But there are other advantages to the Dati Leumi path, but many of those are going to be family dependent. So again people choose a framework which encourages everyone to go a certain way, which is much easier than raising your own children as individuals.

Personally, we happen to affiliate Charedi - but as you can guess I'm emotionally on the fence.

Three years ago we faced the same dilemma that you’re in almost to a “T”. Our kids were in Rappaport and we moved to Ramat Bet Shemesh and needed to decide whether to move towards the charedi or more leumi derech. A few thoughts that might help:

* In general, I like being in a situation where I have to pull my kids more to the center/left. By this I mean, I would rather have the school be in the situation of saying to the kids “you can’t go on the Internet”, for example, and then us being able to say “Well, these sites are ok, but not these” than the opposite. You avoid a lot of conflicts with the kids and you come off as being the “cool” / “easy going one”.

* Charedi comes in many stripes and you sort of need to find the niche that works for you. My experience has been that there’s a growing group of individuals, Anglo predominantly, who are college educated and value higher education, but are concerned about the influence of the T.V. / the ‘Net on the kids. They tend to be pareve or positive towards the medinah. Will this perpetuate to the next generation? It’s hard to say. The kids might move one way or another, but regardless today you do have such communities and it sounds like they would fit your life style.

* There are a number of growing higher education choices for kids coming out of the charedi schools. Machon Lev runs a girls BA program in computer science and I know that Ko Tamar, a bais yaakov in RBS, is looking at ultimately opening up a program. You mentioned Ofakim and there are others as well. If your kids are young I’m not sure I’d sweat it just yet. By the time they’re ready they’ll have plenty of choices…if you go that route.

* Another little detail you may not know, the charedi system is more tolerant about girls studying in university or pursuing higher education after marriage. Granted going to university with kids is a handful, but it is something to consider. I’ve met a few woman who’ve gone that route.

Regardless of the way you choose, I think that a healthy attitude of respect and embuing your kids with respect for other drachim is pretty important. Someone here on this blog have said some pretty harsh words about being charedi. Each lifestyle has it’s pluses and minuses, unfortuantley. What it will come down to ultimately is the relationship you have with your child.

BTW…We are all over the map in the frum world. We've got three kids – one charedi, another thinking army, and a third rollerblading :-) . I’m proud of all of them and as long as their serving hakodesh baruch hu, I say shalom ‘al
Yisrael.

I feel for your struggle. But choosing a high school here is a big decision. You are correct in putting a lot of thought into this. But your daughter is old enough also to have some thoughts on this also. What does she want? This chooses her path in life. If she goes the Dati leumi path, she will be doing sherut leumi, not so in the charedi world. Also there are people in the Dati Leumi world who do not have television and limit their internet use. I know we do and we label ourelves Torani Jews. I personally do not like the chardal word. We do have some tznius issues in our home but I see a lot of charedim with the same issues. At a certain point the kids choose for themselves. There are people struggling with these issues from all the different streams. What one group calls tznius another would call untzinius like those glamorous shaitels. I am just saying it is not all Black and White. Try to find a strean that most fits into your family's derech. Children hate to be different than their peers. Chances are she wants to go where her friends are. Hope this helps. Much harder with boys as then there is the army issue. Good luck.
Signed been there, done it

To be brief;their is little chance a chareidi HS will accept her with your history. you can"t dance at all the weddings. it's either the A train or D train. you can"t cross the tracks. in the states they don't look at your tzizit so closely.you can't have the best of both worlds, gettingoff without an apt. and living with chareidi ideals.

It's much easier to be a little bit charedi in a DL world than a little bit DL in a charedi one.

We spoke to many ppl when making a similar decision to yours. The message we received that sat the best with us is that it is always more easy to be more open at home than to be more strict at home.

I have friends who are very 'frum' who don't have TV and are very restrictive on internet, who have the trouble of trying to deal with their kids going to other ppls homes who are in their school and watching TV, internet, and then wanting the same back home. They have to be the 'badies' being restrictive compared to others.

However if you are more open than the school, in many ways your kids feel happy being at home and you need to worry less about them hanging out elsewhere not knowing what they are getting up to.

Most MD schools have kids from a wide range of frum backgrounds and even rappaport which has a rule of no TVs, many of the kids do have TVs and very free internet access (I am making this comment after a lot of research - pls also make your own research).

There are some Chardal schools that are very selective and only have really charedi dati leumi families, but we found that they were also extremely politically right wing and we don't feel particularly comfortable with that either.

With regards to secular education if you choose to live in RBS or even Har Nof there are some good chareidi schools that do good secular education which will get your boys up to the level to be able to go to a school like Maarava for high school if you want him to get Bagruyot. However for girls this really is not a problem, girls get an excellent secular education in many charedi schools, after all, someone has to earn when they are married!!

Final point, my uncle who is staunchly DM told me that the big situation that he and his community are dealing with is that a 1/3 of their community's male children are now completely secular. You have to think about the following very important question: Would you prefer your children to have a higher chance of being frum but be more right wing (religiously) and maybe less tolerant than you, with maybe a bit more difficulty having a parnasa (although nowadays there are a lot of good courses available for ppl of that background) or would you prefer risking a high (33%) chance that they may end up secular, but with more tolerant, open-minded views?

We chose charedi. Good luck with your decision!!

Dear Reb Yehoshua,
I too compliment you on taking the time to actually think about what you would like to gain from moving to Israel and which is the best system for your daughter.
I feel for your confusion and hope that Hashem guides you as He always does (especially in Eretz Yisroel).
I am writing really to inform you of a new school that is opening for high school girls this coming year (SEP 2010). The fresh news and we have just started to publicize. The school is called Pninei Chein and might be just what you are looking for. Obviously it is hard to describe the entire essence of the school over the internet, but i would be happy to talk to you (or anybody over the phone 05276 20764 or email me blfreilich@gmail.com
Very briefly - The purpose of the school is to help Olim Chadashim acclimatize to Israel. It will be a religious school but not Beis Yaacov. We will be doing full bagrut, teaching on a high academic level. We will imbue he girls with strong Hashkafa yet not be over burdening with rules and regulations. Much less pressure than the average school and include many fun outings and extra curriculum activities. I have humbly been approached and encouraged by many of the local RBS English speaking Rabbanim to open this school, as over the years the need has become huge. The Menahelet is from the USA (with many years of experience teaching here), and has a good understanding of where these girls are coming from.
We shall be hosting an open night where you can meet the staff and ask questions on the 28th December at 8.30pm at Nachal Refaim 7/2.
With all my best wishes and Hatzlacha Raba,
Binyomin Freilich

I'm firmly in the D"L community, and don't pretend to know much about the chareidi world here in Israel.

But my strong sense is that most of the "black hat" / "yeshivish" / "chareidi" types (insert your own adjective) I knew in the US are more similar to serious DL families than they are to Israeli chareidim.

It can be hard for them to see past the externals of kippot vs black hats etc. But in general they share a seriousness about observance; they desire to engage and experience the secular world where it doesn't contradict religious beliefs; they get a serious secular education; and they work for a living.

AIUI, the last three are not a given amongst Israeli chareidim. Almost by definition, you seem not to be a candidate for inclusion in the chareidi world here so why would you take your kids in that direction?

We are now in our third year in Israel - my daughters were in BY elementary school in chu"l and we switched to Mamad Torani here and have found it to be a good choice for us.

It does mean that my kids are spending more time on the internet, which I am not totally thrilled about - but I am on the internet too, this very moment, so I cannot be too hypocritical. It also means that they have some friends who have similar approaches to us about tzniut etc - and others who are a bit more liberal. We cannot just relax and rely on the community and school to set the standards; we have to set them ourselves, and sometimes choose our battles and even occasionally give in.

It also means that we are free to celebrate Yom HaAtzmaut, observe Yom HaZikaron, and discuss topics like evolution without fear of undermining their chinuch.

My eldest is also now looking at high schools. She davka wants dormitory. One school she is considering is Tzvia Maaleh Adumim. It is partial dorm - some nights away and some nights at home, but I don't know if that would be acceptable to you/her.

You should talk to parents from Rapoport or Ayelet HaShachar about chardal options - I believe Beit Shulamit is one such option in Yerushalayim. I think there is also Du Parc, which is a BY but more liberal, and a few others who define themselves as in-between. We are not looking at these schools - my very frum daughter wants DL Torani, not semi-chareidi, and we are fine with that. Chutznik parents like to sit on the fence, but our Israeli children sometimes prefer to choose a side. And once a child is 13, you pick a direction WITH her, not FOR her.

A psychologist friend of mine who works for the medina told me that over 66% of Dati Leumi Torani children are not shomer Shabbat after the Army, and another D"L friend told me that one area that they have lost the battle is boyfriend/girlfrien issues, which, of course involves many D'orisa issurim. If you send to a school where the norm is to have a boyfriend, then you can't expect too much more from your daughter, I think. Also, not every charedi puts themselves into debt for apartments, and they still find appropriate matches. And just because a person realizes the scope of what Torah has to say on so many different subjects in which he is not an expert, and goes for advice, doesn't mean that he is not thinking. Actually, Shlomo Hameleh who was Chacham mi kol adam said , shomaya laitza chacham, the wise person listens to advice. But in general children, especially now, are very influenced by their peers and I hope you find a school for your daughter where the girls are happy to be among the mekablei HaTorah.

A psychologist friend of mine who works for the medina told me that over 66% of Dati Leumi Torani children are not shomer Shabbat after the Army

That's ridiculous. Most DL Torani kids go to hesder yeshivot. You're telling me that in their fifth year of hesder, after finishing the army but still in yeshiva, they no longer keep shabbat?

and another D"L friend told me that one area that they have lost the battle is boyfriend/girlfriend issues, which, of course involves many D'orisa issurim.

Not to make excuses for people who do this, but I can't help pointing out that it's not clear that any deoraita issurim are involved. If the girl has gone to the mikva, then even actual sexual intercourse is not necessarily forbidden deoraita. Even if she hasn't, it's a machloket rishonim whether affectionate contact short of intercourse is forbidden deoraita or derabanan. The reason I'm bringing up these technicalities is to show that your phrase "which, of course involves many D'orisa issurim" seems to be made up on the spot to address a topic you don't actually know firsthand. Which, of course, casts doubt on the claims you made earlier in your post.

Living in a completely non-anglo, Israeli, DL (and primarily eidot hamizrach) community I too have to express extreme skepticism with a figure of 66% non-shomer shabbat figure.

Yes, we know families whose kids are less frum than they are - with all different variations of the less frum - but we know plenty who are 'more frum'. So while maybe there is some leak out of the DL world, we know that this is true also of charedi'm and of course, the flow the opposite direction of all sorts of people who wind up becomming frum or more frum that weren't tightly tied into the community.


I think the main decision that you need to be making is what feels comfortable for you - and this is a very individual decision with lots of shades of grey and no right and wrong answers. For some people, going haredi is right, others need hardal, others DL, etc. But the one thing I believe is critical is that you are not spending your life making apologies to your children about the path you are choosing - you need to feel confident with your decisions, with the fact that in almost every situation you will have differences between what you do at home and what message may be preached outside, etc. Its the positive attitude that needs to be broadcast to our children so that when they are of an age to choose their own paths, they can do so wisely and from the direction 'comfort with' and not of 'running away from' a hashkafa.

My kids are still young but yes, we see the good and bad influences from our decision to be DL in a very mixed community. THere are battles to be fought but then again, there are also many delights and decisions that I see my kids making daily that shows that they truly understand and appreciate torah and mitzvot. They've had to face saying 'I will not attend X because of shabbat' or 'I will not eat Y' on occassion when others do not and they have managed it with respect from those they do not join which only helps them strengthen themselves. Will they stay on the same path as we've chosen when they are adults - I would love to say yes but in the end, they have to find their own way be it further 'right', 'left' or whatever.

Living in a completely non-anglo, Israeli, DL (and primarily eidot hamizrach) community I too have to express extreme skepticism with a figure of 66% non-shomer shabbat figure.

Yes, we know families whose kids are less frum than they are - with all different variations of the less frum - but we know plenty who are 'more frum'. So while maybe there is some leak out of the DL world, we know that this is true also of charedi'm and of course, the flow the opposite direction of all sorts of people who wind up becomming frum or more frum that weren't tightly tied into the community.


I think the main decision that you need to be making is what feels comfortable for you - and this is a very individual decision with lots of shades of grey and no right and wrong answers. For some people, going haredi is right, others need hardal, others DL, etc. But the one thing I believe is critical is that you are not spending your life making apologies to your children about the path you are choosing - you need to feel confident with your decisions, with the fact that in almost every situation you will have differences between what you do at home and what message may be preached outside, etc. Its the positive attitude that needs to be broadcast to our children so that when they are of an age to choose their own paths, they can do so wisely and from the direction 'comfort with' and not of 'running away from' a hashkafa.

My kids are still young but yes, we see the good and bad influences from our decision to be DL in a very mixed community. THere are battles to be fought but then again, there are also many delights and decisions that I see my kids making daily that shows that they truly understand and appreciate torah and mitzvot. They've had to face saying 'I will not attend X because of shabbat' or 'I will not eat Y' on occassion when others do not and they have managed it with respect from those they do not join which only helps them strengthen themselves. Will they stay on the same path as we've chosen when they are adults - I would love to say yes but in the end, they have to find their own way be it further 'right', 'left' or whatever.

Living in a completely non-anglo, Israeli, DL (and primarily eidot hamizrach) community I too have to express extreme skepticism with a figure of 66% non-shomer shabbat figure.

Yes, we know families whose kids are less frum than they are - with all different variations of the less frum - but we know plenty who are 'more frum'. So while maybe there is some leak out of the DL world, we know that this is true also of charedi'm and of course, the flow the opposite direction of all sorts of people who wind up becomming frum or more frum that weren't tightly tied into the community.


I think the main decision that you need to be making is what feels comfortable for you - and this is a very individual decision with lots of shades of grey and no right and wrong answers. For some people, going haredi is right, others need hardal, others DL, etc. But the one thing I believe is critical is that you are not spending your life making apologies to your children about the path you are choosing - you need to feel confident with your decisions, with the fact that in almost every situation you will have differences between what you do at home and what message may be preached outside, etc. Its the positive attitude that needs to be broadcast to our children so that when they are of an age to choose their own paths, they can do so wisely and from the direction 'comfort with' and not of 'running away from' a hashkafa.

My kids are still young but yes, we see the good and bad influences from our decision to be DL in a very mixed community. THere are battles to be fought but then again, there are also many delights and decisions that I see my kids making daily that shows that they truly understand and appreciate torah and mitzvot. They've had to face saying 'I will not attend X because of shabbat' or 'I will not eat Y' on occassion when others do not and they have managed it with respect from those they do not join which only helps them strengthen themselves. Will they stay on the same path as we've chosen when they are adults - I would love to say yes but in the end, they have to find their own way be it further 'right', 'left' or whatever.

Oh no, sorry about all the repeats - I kept getting word verification failures when obviously the post went up :(

I'm happy with our decision to affiliate with the chardal community here. Four out of our 5 girls went to Tzvia Yerushalayim, one went to ulpanat Kiryat Arba, our son went to
M'kor Chayyim, and I'm proud of how all of them turned out.
I'm happy with their tzniut, hakpada b'mitzvot, yirat shamayim, and middot. I have no reason to feel that they are inferior to their
chareidi peers in these critical areas.

Of course, I can't guarantee that everyone will have similar successs, but I think it instructive to point out that such success is attainable.

There are so many ulpanot that surely one would be appropriate for your daughter.
Horev would also seem to be a good possibility.

B'hatzlacha.

Shlomo, there is a Shulchan Aruch who we pasken like who says its a deoraissa. Why bring up other shitos in rishonim? Why is he wrong for just saying what the halacha is?

I am not sure what the need is to bash asking shailos, and following piskei rabonim and daas torah. If for some reason, apikorsus or not, you deem it proper to mock rabonim and not follow what they say - does not mean that its easier to be a chareidi. Nor does it mean that chareidim dont think and just blindly follow rabonim on all issues.

Please take the time to meet some chareidim and see how blind they are.

Then see how blind everyone else is. I bet its the same blindness.

Next, mr ironheart, who said lifes goal is to do whats challenging. It is to do whats right. If I dont know what to do, I ask advice. Isnt it more challenging to live with a medical illness than to go to an expert and ask him what to do? isnt it more challenging to pick up a knife and cut open a body and perform surgery, than to go to an expert?

Why do you think, mr ironheart, that life and halacha are anymore open to the avg joe than medicine?

Plenty of people would call the chareidims way of adherence to mitzvos much more challenging than the MO DL way of picking and choosing. I guess it depends on how you look at things.

Maybe try to open your eyes and look with a positive outlook on chareidim. After all, isnt that the batte cry of MO DL - to loe their fellow jew? Or does that only apply to those on the left? And if so, why is the MO DL better than the chareidim?

Sheesh ! Some people....

The Gadol HaDor, Rav Shach said many years ago that he is not scared that when he gets to shamayim that they will ask him why he is not a zionist. He will simply lay the blame at the feet of the Chofetz Chaim who told us that the zionists are wrong.

With that issue out of the way, we are free to live our lives in accordance with halacha, and not have to work out halacha to fit with our desire to be like the other nations and have out own land and our our culture etc

I'm fascinated by this reasoning that it's better to be more relaxed at home in a charedi community so you'll be "cooler" parents and your kids will like being at home more.

I say no to my kids all the time about things they want cause they're friends have them. My daughter wanted a Bratz doll (google it if you don't know what it is) and I said no, it's not tzanua and that was that. She still asked from time to time and I explained again why I don't want them in the house and she accepted it. She's seen Bratz cartoon shows from time to time at her friends' houses, but even though I don't approve, I don't think it's affected her "overall" closeness to Hashem and keeping of mitzvot.

And, my daughter still likes being at home best and we still have a good relationship, even though I had to say no to something her friends have.

I hear what you are saying about the schools and have thought about it too, but I really believe that you need to be consistent hashkafically - if you are DL at home, you need to send to DL schools. Otherwise what message are you sending to your child about the derech you have chosen?
If you send to charedi schools, you need to become charedi - and really believe in it. Can you do that? Only you know.
B'hatzlacha raba!

regarding the 31% stat: a statement like that is basically worthless. who are they looking at? every kid who goes to a mamlakhti dati school is defined as DL? every kid who goes to a private date school? every kid who goes to hesder?

yes, it is known to everyone that not every kid who learns at a mamlakhti dati school is really dati. they are traditional, maybe the school is a good school, whatever. so after the army not every kid will be shomer shabbat. because it is entirely possible that they weren't shomer shabbat before they went in.

the same can be said for nagiya and every other issue.

I won't react to percentages of DL who leave the fold,obviously it happens.Let's be realistic it also happens in the Chareidi world only they don't talk about it out loud.

We really should get rid of the canard that most Dati kids do not keep Shabbat after the army. It has been raised for 60 years, and it just isn't so. There is little hard data on this; and most folks who spread this aren't part of the Dati veterans of Tzahal.

Like others, I have plenty to say on the topic. Someone's comment here about Dati Leumi girls going to Sherut Leumi pointed me in the direction.

Among the prides of the Dati Leumi path is Hesder. It is a symbol; but what does it symbolize? Service and hesed to the larger community of Israel from firmly within the beit midrash. It is no accident that places like Yeshivat Hesder Kiryat Shemonah have received awards for the student's ongoing public service and impact on the surrounding communities. Girls are similarly educated in terms of devotion to Hashem and His Torah, and service to Israel. The idea that my children would be educated on a path where commitment to Torah includes contribution to the greater society as a driving value, a sometimes unspoken foundation, is very important to me. The move up of Aliyah includes a move to continuing involvement in the development of the Jewish people.

Ask yourself, 'where do I want to see my daughter in 10 years? With what accomplishments? Devoted to which causes? With what kind of education?'

There is no question that the many subcultures in Israel create different experiences. Much is changing and evolving with kibbutz galuyot and the influences on each other; but in any given moment definite values and experiences can be isolated.

I, for instance, am constantly dismayed and disgusted when I read about the issues people have with shidduchim. The distortions and extortions that come into play are something I never heard of as a young Dati Leumi person (though honestly we didn't use any such labels), and I take that as symbolic and symptomatic of a culture with values that I eschew. That's my visceral reaction.

Some of these problems caused me to write a comment on BeyondBT about differences between the subculture I came from (Dati Leumi) and where most of the BeyondBT readers seem to be (Haredi). It is here: http://www.beyondbt.com/2006/05/15/rav-kooks-vision-of-tshuva-and-the-ease-of-bt-integration/

I think one of the greatest thinkers and proponents of a balanced approach advocated by Torah is Rav Aharon Lichtenstein. His essay, The Ideology of Hesder, isolates the philosophical elements and tensions that many of us who may be Dati Leumi oriented have to contend with. It is also a fine piece of exposition from a very significant talmid hacham. If my children ended up his students, I would be very proud indeed. The essay is seminal and well worth reading. It is here: http://www.vbm-torah.org/archive/ral2-hes.htm and can also be found in his book Leaves of Faith. It has far greater implications than 'should boys serve in the army?'

Consider the kind of thinking that Rav Lichtenstein displays in that essay. If that sort of balance and concern is how you want to educate your children, if that is why you came to Israel (ashreicha!), then point them clearly in that direction.

Kol Hakavod Rafi for inviting Yehoshua to write this article/question. It's a great question!

Some of the characteristics I see of DL:

1. A belief that the creation of the State was not just a political act (such as establishing a new shtetl) - but has religious ramifications. The Nissim of the Aliyot/Return from Exile, 1948, the incredible victories of Am Yisrael in 1967 and 1973, Jewish Sovereignty over Jerusalem, the building and renewed fruitfulness of the Land, the rebuilding of Torah throughout Israel (like never existed even in Europe), your and my Aliya..in short the wonderment for Eretz Yisrael/Medinat Yisrael, is deeply spiritual. Beit Hamikdash really IS (fact of the ground) closer than in 1945.
Rituals such as Yom Ha'Atzmaut, Yom Hazicharon, Yom Yerushalaim, prayer for the Medina and for the Chayalim, are a spiritually honest recognition of this.
2. A full-hearted acceptance of and participation in the benefits of science, technology, medicine...in playing our part in the march of Progress. (While being suitably cautious about negative impact of TV, internet, etc).
3. Torah with Derech Eretz (in the sense of integrating our 100% halachik life in a 21st Century context here in Israel).

Some of the great DL institutions are Hesder Yeshivot, Sherut Leumi, Religious Youth Movements (Bnei Akiva, Ariel, Ezra..etc), Bar Ilan University, Machon Lev (beit medrash plus science/engineering), the countless Yishuvim and new towns, kibbutzim, yeshivot ketanot and gevo'ot, the national religious education system (Mamad) for kids throughout the country, the availability of kosher food in every store throughout Israel, etc.etc..

In all these cases, the DL are "out there" - building, contributing, giving.

In short - there's a lot for the DL to be proud of in our accomplishments over just the past couple of generations.

Schools: Our girls went through Ulpanat Gila - they've turned out fantastic - frum, ideological, committed, with trully awesome midot. Their friends also came through very nicely!

Note: BTW, the "statistics" about DL kids becoming secular are incorrect. In some yishuvim they were seeing a phenomenon of "kipa hazruka" about 10 years ago - reportedly sometimes as high as 15-20%; the average was far lower. What seems to have happened is many of these 18-19 yo kids who tossed out their kippot, put their kippot back on and rejoined the fold later (in their mid-20's). Also there's drift rightwards, as some grow long peot and out-sized kippot srugot; some put on black kipot (living in a place like RBS gives kids that choice too). Kids in all streams are dynamic, moving in either direction.

My 2 Cents!

(I'm totally biased; I washed up as a teen at Machon Meir, and fell in love with Eretz Yisrael and the whole shleimut of DL Torani. My passion has been constant since!)

Binyomin,

Don't you think it is disingenuous to present your school without mentioning the fact that it is obviously a way to try to convert American girls into Israeli charedi?
You mention strong hashkafa without even mentioning what the hashkafa is. This gives you the chance to tell each individual who calls what they want to hear.

I think some of the Charedi posters here are painting a picture of DL as if it is all one uniform movement.
Boyfriend girlfriend is not in many DL schools.
Same with becoming not frum. It is a problem more in some communities than others. Charedim also have that problem. Just check out the evening hangouts in RBS and ask the kids where they come from.


Re the comment about R. Shach Zt"l.
With all due respect to him (I did not confirm the citation, but for arguments sake), did he blindly accept every other statement of the Chafetz Chaim? Do you think the Ribbono Shel Olam wants a talmid chacham of that stature to blindly accept statement from gedolim of the previous generation?
Was that really his main argument against zionism?
What does quoting R. Shach add to the discussion without quoting all of the other gedolim?


All of the charedi posters who base their lives on rumors,hearsay, and anecdotes should perhaps give some citation to the ridiculous statistics that they quote that everyone in the DL community knows are false.

A psychologist friend of mine who works for the medina told me that over 66% of Dati Leumi Torani children are not shomer Shabbat after the Army

He's obviously charedi. Otherwise he would acknowledge his statistic is more like 66% of those he COUNSELS are like this, and recognize that those who deal in pathology do not get a true cross-section of the population.


If the girl has gone to the mikva, then even ....

Buddy, your post is too disgusting to actually quote. And it misses the point. Yes the DL community turns more of a blind eye to open violations in this area and it's a shame. But your style of DL (if you even are) doesn't suit any of the sincere posters here, who take their halacha and chinuch yeladim serioiusly, whatever the community.

Another canard.

"I'm totally biased; I washed up as a teen at Machon Meir..."

I think Rav Bigon would be quite proud of you? Have you been back? Shared with him what you do?

The mikve comment was ridiculous. There are people who consider themselves religious and just don't keep certain things. Most of them probably do issurei deoraisa.
Joining that group was not part of the discussion here. If you want to take into account that the broader DL includes those types that is a different issue

I only skimmed over some of the comments so I may have missed a lot and most of them are langa megillos.

To me the answer to his dilemma is really quite simple:

This gentelman must decide what kind of husbands he would like to see his daughters with. Obviously, if his daughters have their own shittos he must take that into account, but if they don't, he should go with his own. If he would like more chareidi guys as sons-in-law he must send his girls to the more charedi schools. If he would like more dati-leumi SILs, then dati-leumi is the way to go.

No chachmas here.

In case he is confused about what a chareidi really is, he may want to look into my book:

One Above and Seven Below

and the associated blog:

Achas L'Maala V'Sheva L'Matta

Hatzlacha Rabba

Yechezkel

I just want to urge you to think twice and three times about switching educational horses in midstream. Your daughter's friends and classmates are presumably all headed towards a particular range of schools. It is quite reasonable for you to encourage her to consider some schools within that range and to rule out others. And if SHE is taking the initiative, it is also reasonable to consider schools that are very different hashkafically from those her classmates are considering. But for the parents of a young teenager, who is old enough to have her own opinion, to decide that to switch her from DL to chardal or chareidi is pretty risky. I know some adults whose parents did this sort of thing at that age - either DL/MO to chareidi, or vice versa - from what they report, all were confused and/or rebellious at the time of the transition, and some are STILL confused and/or rebellious decades later. I am not saying she shouldn't choose a more chareidi school than where she is now, but I think she needs to feel like SHE owns the decision.

I totally agree with the previous comment that it's a bit late in the game to change courses, particularly socially. Your daughter has made her own friends in the milieu and school you're currently in. And she probably already has her own ideas about which direction she wants to go. So forcing her one way or another is not a great way to go. I urge you to consult with her and make the decision together.

I think Americans tend to choose Charedi because they dont understand what Charedi in Israel means.
In America to be mroe serious religiously meant wearing a black hat and the like. If you wore a kippa seruga it was because your girlfriend made it for you.
So when they come to Israel, they go with what they think they know - not understanding how different an American Charedi is from them and not understanding that there are Torani DL that are just as makpid on halacha that they were in America.

This topic came up in a chinuch shiur recently. (It is given by an Israeli charedi woman, who said she decided to discuss it during all her courses with Americans after what happened with the Beis Yaakov Hatzafon a while ago.)

She said that while in previous generations unity was a big goal, in today's generation people judge what group you belong to by your clothes and your lifestyle (both in Israel and parts of the US). She advised us to accept this reality and start thinking about where we belong while our kids were still young, and then, if necessary, gradually changing our clothing/lifestyle (eg. amount of toys and chugim, computer in the home) to fit in with where we want to be. She said to think about what your rav and community do, and then the schools you want will want you. As long as you're following your rav and are happy with your community, you should be ok to get into the schools for that community. For example, she said Rapaport is an ok school to send to, but you are making a decision that will affect the future schools you send your kids to and you have to be happy with that. She wasn't telling us that we have to be right-wing charedi, but she was telling us that if we want to send our kids to those schools (eg. the Snif), we need to behave accordingly while our kids are younger (both so we'll look like we belong when we apply to the school, and so our kids will have an easier time integrating there).

To my relief she also said that due to financial reality the concept of a ben Torah that also works is catching on in Israeli society, although it is common for men to learn for about 5 years after marriage.

The letter writer sounds like he had been in Israel long enough to have found a community and schools that he feels comfortable with, and I'd advise him to continue on to High Schools in the same system. If he decides he wants his family to be more charedi, perhaps the more modern American schools would accept his daughter, but it would be a decision that affects how his family behaves at home too. The main thing is to be able to support the school. (The same teacher has told us previously an unusual story of a secular boy who decided he wanted to go to a torah school in kita aleph. His parents let him and agreed to support the school in whatever it said, although they never became frum. Today he is an avreich in Hevron, married into a chashuva family. His parents are still not frum, but dress the part when necessary,eg. at the wedding.

With regards to the comments that it's better to be more lax than the school, these surprised me as I have heard people over the years say the opposite, that if you're telling your kids they don't have to listen to the restrictions the school is giving, they can generalise it to all of yiddishkeit.

what happened in Beis Yaakov HaTzafon?

Here is part of the answer.

The challenge we have is that we keep labeling Jews into smaller groups. If we focused on the Bnai Yisroel part and not the Coastal vs Heartland, Religious vs Secular, Charedi vs Dati Leumi.

When we were in the states, we tended towards Black because that was our means to deal with the crush of Chutz.

Here in Israel it is much easier to be observant w/o the need to be Black.

Coming from a conservative background, having seen the light in my early 20's (I am now 52), one thing I never understood is Modern Orthodox. This has always struck me as an oxymoron. Frum means following the traditional ways that have been passed down from Ancient Times.

If a child is choosing to be further right then his/her parents this must be what they need. I suppose that if a child moves lefty it is also what they need. Being a parent requires a lot of prayer to HKBH that our children will be in the best environment possible for them.

If your child chooses further right, are you as a parent prepared to REALLY support them in their choice, especially when it makes a demand on you?

I arrived on Aliyah 16 Nov 2006, on R.H. Nisan my son and I assended Har HaBayit, mikveh, cloth shoes, carrying nothing. We toured w/Rabbi Nachum Schnitzer who had lead groups many times before. I told him that part of the reason I was on Har HaBayit was to do T'shuva. In 1976, when I was 18 and on an AZYF summer in Israel trip, our Sachnut tour guides brought us up to Har HaBayit. When I asked about the sign from the Rabbis I was told that I didn't have an option since we were leaving by a different gate. I touched the mozaic on the structure in the middle of Har HaBayit. I stood in the doorway and gazed upon the Even Shisiyah, although at the time, our guides only mentioned that that was the rock that muhammed's horse rose up from.

So, walking in the permitted area w/o crossing to the forbidden area was my tikun.

Shortly after, it came up in Chaim Yisroel's 5th grade class at Debrot Moshe, a school he chose. When he mentioned that we had been on Har HaBayit, his Rebbi said that the Rabbi's forbade that.

I talked w/ his Rebbi who explained that while there are ways to walk on Har HaBayit that would be permissible, since the Rabbis have said we can't, we can't. Rebbe went on to say that while I wouldn't be over, we don't go. He was trying to be diplomatic and said that he was not telling me what I could or couldn't do.

Here comes the mussar: I told him that if he said to my son that we couldn't ascend Har HaBayit then we couldn't ascend Har HaBayit, because if I did return to Har HaBayit then I would be negating all the Torah that he had taught my son that year.

So, if you love your child and you want them to be Torah observant, then once a school is chosen the parents need to be supportive in that chinuch.

My HKBH guide your path.

Hillel

I've read the comments about it being better to put your kids in a school that is more right wing than you.
First of all, you have to ask whether you are talking about the parent body or the hashkafa of the school. Since most people think that a more right wing school will make up for anything lacking at home, the parent body is skewed to the left of the school's hashkafa.
Second, I think it can be detrimental to send to a school that is far from the parents hashkafa, whether to the right or the left. Sending a dati leumi child to a charedi school can lead to the child going off the derech in the same way it might with a charedi kid in a DL school. Children have a hard time when they learn things at school that contradict what they are being taught at home. I'm talking about the big things like attitude toward the army and the State of Israel and the opposite sex, not sleeve length.
I heard that at the Rappaport interview (1st grade) they ask where you see your kid in 7th grade.
I prefer a school with a hashkafa closest to our own, even if we will be one of the more "right wing" families.

Rafi Re: Beis Yaakov HaTzafon

The school serves the Sanhedria area in Jerusalem, which is quite right-wing charedi. It is also for Ramat Eshkol, which has become American charedi in recent years. To deal with the different communities, the principal put the Americans in a separate class. I only heard about it after it was all over (I think the Americans may have left the school - by choice - in the end. I'm not sure). You can search online for more details.

What I find most disturbing about this discussion is that almost all of the answers to this person's seemingly sincere (though, I feel, misguided) question, either involve some assertion of superiority regarding one path over the other, or base themselves on the benefits that accrue to the would-be path follower as opposed to the inherent merits of the paths-- as if these paths are merely tactics for "making it" within Israeli society.

My answer to this person is, do not expect these synthetic sociological constructs and their respective institutions to raise your children or make you a better Jew. Focus on the responsibility you have within your relationship to Hashem, to fear and love Him, learn His Torah and keep his mitzvos. No one, no matter what head covering they choose, will be able to escape these criteria in the final analysis of their own individual lives. Find the resources you and your family needs to do these things in the most optimal manner possible. Then you can worry about leasing or buying an apartment.

The foundation of most people is the family, unless they have lost their family, and then it is the teacher. It is more important for the family to assert core values than for it to rely on a school to do so. The school does not truly enforce behavior; family and friends are the behavioral keys. Talking with your children regularly is crucial. Since you think/believe that the government of Israel has legitimacy, you are already detached from the Haredim. Your main concern is to preserve your values in an atmosphere which may not be strict. The true middle path, advocated by chazal and which we see more clearly in DL gedolim, is in fact much harder than the Haredi path. Yet you will wind up IY"H with strong children if you take this path. I am an olah, DL, and have now lived in the heart of a Haredi community by hashgacha pratit for 1 1/3 years. I was very strongly attracted to the clear lines of no driving on Shabbath and separating men from their baser impulses but found that this latter was overdone. By and large, Haredi women I have known live by small minded, limited, and formulaic understanding. I do not fault many of the Haredim, men and women,as many of them must have sincere beliefs. However, it is very tempting to put on an outward show and even follow rules without making the leap from the rules to one's interactions with other humans, the "responsibility to other men". Bachya Ibn Pakuda made it clear about the duties of the heart. If you can, it is better to allow your children to learn the middle path, as they will then have many possible directions to follow but with the right balance.
One more caveat: Jews have had to struggle for over 1000 years with living in antagonistic circumstances--especially Ashkenazi Jews--but while there are serious rifts in Israel, it is EY, not Galut, and many of the same protective restrictions do not really apply. As many sages have said, it is attractive to wall oneself off (as the Haredi try to do) but ultimately it is not living a "real" life as Hashem put us here to do. I mean no offense to Haredim but the gestalt veers off to a static interpretation of Judaism.

Brana Lobel

Many people I know who have gone the Chareidi route, is because they don't want their children going to the army.

My advice: Chanoch haNoar al pi darko.

Every kid is different, and what is right for one isn't necessarily the best option for another.

Many, many years ago, when we were living in Israel and had a similar dilemma, I "interviewed" at the Chorev school to try to get my daughter in.

The Rosh Yeshiva/Principal asked me if I was Chareidi. Telling the truth, I said no. Then he asked me if I covered my hair all the time. Again, telling the truth (as it was at the time), I answered in the negative. He rejected my daughter.

Thank G-d. It was the wrong place for her and for us. I don't call a school which teaches that "dinosaur bones were planted in place by Hashem to fool the scientists, because they never really existed" a Dati Leumi school.

I call it Hareidi/ridiculous.