Someone says it how it is.

Looks like he is reformulating the sentiment of Rav Chaim Brisker when he said that the purpose of the state is to uproot Yahadus. Everything else is just a means for that goal

Rafi,

Although not the topic of this post I think that it is appropriate to comment here.

Are you aware that the Rav of our shul has banned Lema'an Achai?

Why? Just because David Morris has the guts to stand up for our kids?

My wife attended the Limudei Lottie event last night and came home sickened by what's going on out there. It seems to date that Lema'an Achai has been the only one to do anything and now they are getting punished.

What is this Nazi Germany? Perhaps it's not the secular but our own rabbonim who are helping to uproot yahadus here.

I hope that you will post about this even though it is our Rav who is behind it.

Not that I agree with the rav, but I don't think that it is a fair assessment to say:
"Just because David Morris has the guts to stand up for our kids?"
He did it because he felt the David Morris as a representative of LA exaggerated the scope of the problem and unfairly implicated community rabbonim as being indifferent or worse. Whereas, the rav felt that the rabbonim where doing quite a lot and handling it correctly. That is my understanding of the rav's approach.
I don't agree with him, and I don't agree with most of his approach. Although, I do concede that the blown up unconfirmed statistic should not have been said.

"I do concede that the blown up unconfirmed statistic should not have been said."

I read the article numerous times and can not find a "blown up" statistic that argues with any that have been documented.

outraged or others - perhaps you can speak to him and get involved? numerous things are being tried (or have been), and so far nothing has changed the situation.
Writing a post will not help anything.
If you have any constructive ideas, or ways you can help even without putting them here, I am sure many people would appreciate it.

this sounds like the beginning of a split within beis tefilah.

this hole should be plugged before the ship sinks.

Rafi wrote:
"outraged or others - perhaps you can speak to him and get involved? numerous things are being tried (or have been), and so far nothing has changed the situation."

I have spoken with him and he won't budge. To tell you the truth I am becoming embarassed of being involved in such a kehilla that would tolerate the punishment of poor people and such a fine organization.

B''H there are other alternatives in the city that I am looking into.

Rafi..I do thinkt hat a post would help. If nothing else more people would be informed about Lema'an Achai's situation and perhaps would help.

BTYA - I don't think a post will help... The reason there is a problem is the exact reason many of us have liked BTYA and the Rav all along - because it is independant and does not cowtow to pressures from others (on most things at least). the rav has always been an independant mind and never felt like he had to give in to anybody when he felt he knew the right way. Personally, that is the main reason (among other reasons as well obviously) I have stayed in BTYA over the years.

In this case, the same independence is in play. The rav feels very strongly on this matter and will not budge. The only way I see it being resolved, without either the rav or lemaan achai stepping back form their positions, is via the board forcing the situation saying it is intolerable for it to stand as it is, and the only way I see them getting involved is if they see it threatening the membership numbers.

So Rafi,

Even if the Rav might "lead us off a cliff" because he will not ever back down (even when he is wrong like in this case) should we follow him?

BTYA - I guess that depends on how you understand the concept of "daas torah" and the rav's drasha about trusting him from a couple of months ago.. :-)

I don't know. I know some people (myself included) were in touch with the rav about this in the past, and it did not help (it did help a bit at the time in getting things toned down, but not enough, and obviously it has continued).
Perhaps the more people who are concerned about it speak to the rav, maybe will convince him that this situation should be treated differently.

Lets go back to the original topic.

I dont like Eichlers extremism, he is a charedi Tommy Lapid.
When I read or hear him, I sometimes have the impression that he doesn't himself believe in what he says.
Implying that the Medina is a terrible place? One sees that he hasn't lived in Chu'l.
There are many religious jews who are happy to live in a Jewish place, including charedim even if it's not exactly built on a Tora basis.

"I do concede that the blown up unconfirmed statistic should not have been said."

David Morris has written on his blog Tzedek-Tzedek in response to Rav Malinowitz's accusation that David "exagerated" in the quote in the JPost. "So How Common IS Child Abuse in RBS?"
http://tzedek-tzedek.blogspot.com/2009/08/so-how-common-is-child-sexual-abuse-in.html

David's statistics in his article were re-confirmed yesterday by David Mandel, CEO of Ohel, in a seminar Mandel gave to RBS professionals about Child Abuse, hosted by Lema'an Achai.

R.Malinowitz owes Morris and Lema'an Achai a public apology for the Rav having reacted with gross misjudgement to the JPost article, and having made his initial error of judgement only worse by placing his punitive cherem on over 160 impoverished families. (Some of whom, min hastam, are members of his kehila).

Where is the shul vaad standing on this??

There are a lot o f plusses here. No one denies that. But in America, you dont get the feeling that everyone not like you is out to get you, is out to prove that youre wrong, is out to punish you for your religion.

I know. I know. This government gives so much money to the chareidim. More than any other country.


Guess money isnt everything

Outraged and others -

Do you really think that the Rabbonim are out to hurt the kids?

If you trust them with nidda shailos and shabbos shailoe - both of which include issues of death - dont you think you can trust their judgement here?

They simply have a different way of doing things.

Big, loud, and extreme - even if true - is not the way.

but once it has been done, even if it was wrong the way it was presented, does this have to be the reaction? punish the whole organization and the recipients of the tzedaka?
really it wasn't even Lemaan Achai who spoke to Eglash, but David Morris. So maybe Morris should be banned from Beis Tefilla personally until he apologizes or retracts his statement (assuming such an apology is in order), but why ban Lemaan Achai? What did they do wrong? Lemaan Achai is so much bigger than Morris, even though Morris is the founder.

Anon,

(First of all while I don't think that rabbonim are out to hurt kids it could be that they aren't protecting them good enough)

I have been living in the Rama for quite some time.

It was until the JP article that any public education or awareness has been made about this in our community.

IMHO Rav Malinowitz would have been much wiser to come out and agree that something has to be done rather than shoot the messenger.

"If you trust them with nidda shailos and shabbos shailoe - both of which include issues of death - dont you think you can trust their judgement here?"

Who says I would trust them with any shailos?

B''H there charedi rabbonim here in RBS with chochma,seichel and sensitivity toward victims and their families.

Rav Malinowitz seems to have gone ballistic about the JPost Eglash article, because he read it as a direct attack on him.

Nobody else read it that way. (For those whose memories don't stretch that far, re-read it at:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1243872320108

Makes one wonder why Rav Malinowitz felt personally needled?? And is still out for personal revenge upon Morris...regardless of how many impoverished families the good rabbi shoots in the cross-fire...?

What IS Rav Malinowitz's record on dealing appropriately with child sex abuse cases?

Some points...
1-A possible explanation, If I was working with someone (call him Ploni), dealing with an issue(of which there were only a few cases).
And Ploni was quoted saying there were thousands of cases and the problem is that people in my position are ignoring and mishandling the issue. I'd be furious.

2-I've seen David's defense here
(http://tzedek-tzedek.blogspot.com/2009/08/so-how-common-is-child-sexual-abuse-in.html)
It's worth reading the whole thing.

I think his actual words were more reasoned than the quote. (I also think he should have done his research beforehand instead of after.)
But if for eg." The largest number of sex offenders in any age group is…aged fourteen." or "members of their family" are one of the main culprits, why blame the
entirety of the problem on mishandling by the Rabbanim of teachers in schools.

3-Statistics....there's a famous expression about interpreting statistics.

4-Banning an organization from collecting in shul...
LA will still get money from their supporters who are members of the shul.
The families LA helps can also get help from other organizations too, you know.
I think DM should apologize and move on.

Another Member of the Shul.

Anonymous: "why blame the
entirety of the problem on mishandling by the Rabbanim of teachers in schools."

Actually, DM was quoted in the JPost Eglash article as saying:

Morris also says that the response of the authorities such as the police and social services is slow and bureaucratic, with the accused not being found guilty or exonerated for years.

"It's a no-win situation," he continues. "Most people are greatly disappointed by the official response from both within the community and from outside."

Where do you see that he is saying that "the entirety of the problem is the mishandling by the rabbonim and the schools"?

He's clearly saying that no-one's yet got an effective response to child abuse in our community - not the schools, not the rabbonim, not the social services, not the police... and therefore is calling the community to action to fix things up.

Indeed, thanks solely to Morris, the community HAS done some waking up, and there's been far more done in the past three months than in the previous ten years.

1. Meeting of community rabbonim with the Child Protection Services. (First ever)

2. Limudei Lotti educational series on child abuse.

3. Public calls by Rav Malinowitz (by email to his congregants) and Rav Kornfeld (in the otherwise infamous Rosenblum article attacking Morris) for education about child abuse.

4. Yesterday's "Ohel" Child Sex Abuse Professional Development Seminar, which was a packed-house of local professionals, hosted at Lema'an Achai.

5. Rav Malinowitz held a special session on Child Abuse with women from his community. (Tho unfortunately it seems to have been clumsily handled)

To name but a few of the unprecedented moves in the right direction....

Kudos to all who are helping with better protecting our kids - and for goodness sake, Rav Malinowitz should drop his bizarre grievance against Morris - whose work in this field is highly respected by most of us in our grateful community - and work together for a better future.

Record Straight-
I'm referring to this:


According to Morris, the problem is concentrated in local independent schools - facilities partially funded by the Education Ministry but not supervised by it - which have failed to be supportive of parents who claim that their child has been a victim.

In most of the schools, a rabbinic authority has the final say, and in many cases ends up believing the perpetrators' story over the victims', he says.

"I don't know why the community leaders chose to protect the adults over the children, but we hope that we can now start to get the word out that children have to be listened to and protected at all costs."
Your other points are valid.

Another member of the shul

Anon: "According to Morris, the problem is concentrated in local independent schools...etc"

For substantiation on some of the details of what David was obliquely refering to, see the subsequent Haaretz investigative report about child abuse cases in RBS independent schools:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1093270.html

What David was saying was absolutely correct, and he was doing so generically rather than naming names.

Haaretz went on to name names, schools, teachers, etc.

So, anon - please explain your problem again with David Morris' comments to the JPost?

Record Straight-

1-My problem:
The article which he's quoted in(with at least one misquote) is a smear job by Eglash.

In addition his quote of thousands of cases(although possibly statistically accurate in a general population) is ascribed to schools in RBS.
Of which the problem is concentrated in...

I've read the article many times. It's clear who the "bad guys" are meant to be and where the problem is supposed to be.

It is not a balanced article by any means.

To the extent he contributed to that smear, I have a problem with it.

2-
A more balanced article could have quoted from the side accused.


More accurately it could have said:
Statistically there are possibly many more abuse cases we don't know about. Most of which are by people they know etc.
There are some cases alleged in schools specifically some local independant schools...where the cases weren't proved to the satisfaction of the adminstration ...He could talk about the efforts of the Rabbanim.
His quote of
" I don't know why the community leaders chose to protect the adults over the children"
was uncalled for.


Another Member of the Shul.

Anonymous: "To the extent he contributed to that smear, I have a problem with it."

You're moving the goal posts here.

First you said Morris exagerated. Now you admit he didn't.

Then you say that he overly focused on the school problem. Now you admit this was in fact the focus of known incidents.

Now you're saying because Eglash is, in your eyes, "not balanced" in the rest of the article, this would be somehow Morris' fault by association.

If this is the case, why have none of the three RBS commmunity rabbonim who directly contributed to the Rosenblum smear-job of Morris and Lema'an Achai - issued a public apology for THEIR association with THAT smear job??

BTW, a major difference between Eglash and Rosenblum is that Eglash (and David Morris) did not point the fingers at any specific people - whereas Rosenblum verged on targeted character assassination of David Morris by name.

If apologies are indeed due, as you suggest, by way of association with smear job - three of our RBS rabbonim owe Morris a major apology.

Furthermore, anonymous, your observation that "A more balanced article could have quoted from the side accused." surely applies to Rosenblum too, right? In which case why did Rosenblum not contact David Morris for a response, before publicly attacking him??

And finally, anonymous:
"His quote of
" I don't know why the community leaders chose to protect the adults over the children"
was uncalled for."

Fact: in all three cases reported by Haaretz, the suspected child molesters were kept in the classrooms by the schools, even during the course of the police investigations. This was with full knowledge and approval of the rabbinical parties involved in these cases.

In these circumstance, how can you fault Morris's statement of incredulity:
" I don't know why the community leaders chose to protect the adults over the children".

I'm also incredulous, frankly - and so, anonymous, should you be.

How on earth could responsible rabbonim stand in the way of separating alleged child mollesters from their alleged victims??!!

I cannot believe they willingly left the lions to tend the lambs.

So, it could only be if the Rabbonim DID NOT BELIEVE THE KIDS.

Right?

Record - I don't think you can make the same claim against Rosenblum and hold him to the same standards when his article was really just a response and a defense (of either the general haredi community,, rbs in general, or the rabbonim in particular, your choice).

Yes, I rosenblum was writing an article about abuse in defense of the rabbonim/community he should have given morris a right to respond, he shouldnt have named morris, etc. But his article was a defense. Morris already had his say. the other side already made their points. you can't insist rosenblum be held to standards that the original article did not keep to.

Record Straight-

(your comment is at th =)

=Anonymous: "To the =extent he =contributed to that =smear, I have a =problem with it."

Please read my original post.
There is a difference between what might bother the Rav from the article as written and what bothers ME after reading DM's defence.

=You're moving the =goal posts here.
=First you said =Morris exagerated.

I still think his original quote did.
His defence isn't much better. 1 in 8 isn't 1 in 1000.
(Even if there are 1 in 8, that doesn't mean the other 7 are in school. It's an average.)

=Now you admit he =didn't.
No,I don't.
=Then you say that he =overly focused on
=the school problem.

He conflates a total abuse problem and lays it on the schools.
(perhaps a misquote)

=Now you admit this =was in fact the =focus of known =incidents.

That was never in doubt.

=Now you're saying =because Eglash is, =in your eyes, "not =balanced" in the =rest of the article, =this would be =somehow Morris' =fault by =association.

I could have been clearer.
My point was that his words as quoted were part of the smear.
I was trying to be dan lekaf zechus that he might have been misquoted.

=If this is the case, =why have none of the =three RBS commmunity =rabbonim who =directly contributed =to the Rosenblum =smear-job of Morris =and Lema'an Achai - =issued a public =apology for THEIR =association with =THAT smear job??

Why bring this up?
If they don't apologize then DM doesn't need to?
If you say something which insults someone, unless you intended to insult them,you should apologize.

(I'll even dictate a possible apology.
I'm sorry for insulting the Rav.
My words were partially misquoted.
I meant to say that the abuse problem is bigger than the cases reported.
I disagree with the Rav's approach in dealing with the schools. But in my frustration I should not have implied that you aren't trying to protect the kids.
Please forgive me.)


=BTW, a major =difference between =Eglash and Rosenblum =is that Eglash (and =David Morris) did =not point the =fingers at any =specific people - =whereas Rosenblum =verged on targeted =character =assassination of =David Morris by =name.

DM was arguably worse
by indicting an entire class of people.
"The community leaders"
Besides everyone in the community knows who he was talking about.
But apologies all around is fine.

=If apologies are =indeed due, as you =suggest, by way of =association with =smear job - three of =our RBS rabbonim owe =Morris a major =apology.

I read his article again. They don't mention Morris once.
Rosenblum is the one with the alpha-omega comment.Most of the article was a defense of those attacked in Eglash's article.
(To say that DM thinks he knows better is true)
If I missed an insult in the article,fine.
They can apologize too.

=Furthermore, =anonymous, your =observation that "A =more balanced =article could have =quoted from the side =accused." surely =applies to Rosenblum =too, right? In which =case why did =Rosenblum not =contact David Morris =for a response, =before publicly =attacking him??

Maybe they thought they were the other half of Eglash's article.:))

He should have contacted him even if only to clarify his words.
cont.

cont.

=And finally, =anonymous:
="His quote of
=" I don't know why =the community =leaders chose to =protect the adults =over the children"
=was uncalled for."

=Fact: in all three =cases reported by =Haaretz, the =suspected child =molesters were kept =in the classrooms by =the schools, even =during the course of =the police =investigations. This =was with full =knowledge and =approval of the =rabbinical parties =involved in these =cases.

=In these =circumstance, how =can you fault =Morris's statement =of incredulity:
=" I don't know why =the community =leaders chose to =protect the adults =over the children".

I do. There are ways to protect the children during an investigation.
It's not either or.

=I'm also =incredulous, frankly =- and so, anonymous, =should you be.

=How on earth could =responsible rabbonim =stand in the way of =separating alleged =child mollesters =from their alleged =victims??!!

The key word is "alleged".

=I cannot believe =they willingly left =the lions to tend =the lambs.

=So, it could only be =if the Rabbonim DID =NOT BELIEVE THE =KIDS.

=Right?
Believing kids is not the same as protecting.
Obviously they didn't believe the kids.

If the stakes are so high that the Rav should give in.
Then the stakes are high enough for DM to apologize. I don't think he meant to insult anyone. So say so.

Another Member of the Shul

Maybe Rav Malinowitz and David Morris could sign a Joint Statement?!

They both care so deeply for our community - and have shown it in their many achievements for the klal.

Neither of them would willfully hurt the other or damage the great insitutions they represent.

They share many of the same hashkafos - although surely not everything - but who does?

And they both care deeply about the safety of our kids.

Yes - they clearly disagree about shittas for dealing with child abuse cases.

And it doesn't look like either is willing to 'apologize' to the other for their shitta any time soon.

"How to best respond to and prevent child abuse", is a legitimate and important subject for debate.

A forum for this, for planning a more effective community program/s for preventing and responding to future child abuse cases (chas veshalom) should be quickly established.

If there were to be such a forum in the community, then neither party would be required to go to the press (or, with all respect Rafi, to the blogs) in order to make their point.

Anyone out there like to broach the concept with DM and Rav Malinowitz about drafting a Joint Statement? And forming an appropriate forum?

Does anyone know of a successful forum in another community, which we in RBS could use as a model?

I'm sure a joint statement would give ALL of our community a lot of nachas and would set a great tone for Rosh Hashana/YK.

Yes We Can!! (Can't we?)

Is it true that both Rav Malinowitz and Hakshiva refused to publicly participate in the Limudei Lotti Rav Brizak Child Safety/Abuse event this week - because it was sponsored by Lema'an Achai?

An open Hellenist at lest he is honest. Now we can clearly see why they are allied with the PA(A.K.A. PLO), they share similar antisemitic ideals.

Is It True said:Is it true that both Rav Malinowitz and Hakshiva refused...etc..

I find this very hard to believe.
Hard, meaning painful.

Can anyone substantiate this?

I also had heard that Hakshiva was supposed to be involved but pulled out because LA was a sponsor.

As a member of BTYA and one of the over 100 women who attended I did find it strange that Rav Malinowitz wasn't there as it was his shul and Limudei Lottie is connected to him.

Don't Rabbi Malinowitz, BTYA and now Hakshiva realise that by attacking/boycotting Lema'an Achai, for standing up against child abuse in our community, that they are betraying all of our children - but especially victims of abuse?
Why isn't caring for kids these people's highest priority?
Why should petty politics and inflated Rabbinical egos come first?