What do you mean by "become religious"? Taking on ritual has nothing to do with becoming more moral. If "becoming more religious" is defined as "try to serve God better", then yes; that might lead to becoming more moral.

yes, not just the ritual itself, but the meaning of becoming closer to God via the ritual.

that is why I compared it to living according to any ideology...

Are financial crimes more moral than violence?

I wouldnt call them more moral, but perhaps less immoral. But my point in mentioning financial crimes was to say that even the religious community does suffer from crime, though I do think the financial crimes ore not as immoral as crimes such as violence, rape and murder.

Religion should lead to greater morality but as they say in Israel (or used to, at any rate): Zot hadat, aval zeh esek.

Religion around the world, but especially in Judaism, has seen a growing disconnect between the ritual and the moral. The same guy who checks both his pairs of tefillin on an annual basis and won't eat a piece of meat with less than 3 hechshers may not have a problem lying to gain money. He just doesn't see the connection because he does that ritual just fine.

> It seems like it is obvious - just look at a secular school with the metal detectors and weapons,

The difference is that in the chiloni system, the kids are in school so the violence happens there. In the chareidi system, they send the kids onto the street to protest some parade or gas station they don't like so they get it out of their system that way!

The difference is that in the chiloni system, the kids are in school so the violence happens there. In the chareidi system, they send the kids onto the street to protest some parade or gas station they don't like so they get it out of their system that way!

interesting connection. didnt think of it like that

Check out this article by R Aharon Lichtenstein, titled :Being Frum and Being Good

http://vbm-torah.org/archive/develop/06develop.htm

As a famous atheist (I forgot who, so he couldn't have been that famous) once point out, the only problem with not believing in God is that the only objection he has to wanton evil is that he doesn't like it.

Being religious does not make one more moral, but a code of morality is built into your life. Someone who believes in God and acts immorally is going against his belief system, and there's no way to change the system.

Someone who does not believe in God (or who believes in God but does not feel that it obligates him to act according to any system) may act morally, but that morality is not defined or rooted in anything but his own view of morality. He thus allows himself the flexibility to alter that view if he deems it appropriate. As anyone who knows anything about people will tell you, that is the beginning of a very slippery slope.

So religious people may not be more moral (actually, if they are not moral, who says they are religious), but they live their life according to a system which has a more or less unchangeable moral code built in.

unfortunately I fear that sex crimes may be MORE prevalent in charedi circles, since predators know that the victims are much less likely to go to the police.

Neighbor,

I think that too is changing.

Jewish Wedding,

Not here in RBSA where molestors enjoy the full protection of the community.

(And people who stand up to protect children are shunned)

What a disgrace

Doesn't every group, and almost every person, almost always think they are right?

Whats the big surprise that any one group thinks they are right (moral)?

The charedi think they are moral, I think they are not.

The israelis think they are moral, the palestinians do not.

The chinese think they are moral, the tibetians do not.

etc etc etc.

as I said, pretty much anybody deciding to live according to any ideology is probably going to be subscribing to live a more moral life, each according to the morals professed by that ideology.

Any particular individual might fail and not be moral, but generally the attempt to live a life based on ideology is going to be more moral - and not just a Judaism life, but also.

yes, but thats my point as well. You just need to recognize that people who are not living orthodox/religious based lifestyles, live by a different ideological standard, and thus a different yet equal moral standard.

I live by an atheist/humanist/scientific based ideology. My moral compass is equally valid and equally lacking as the charedi version of morality.

But my ideology forces me to view our versions of morality as equals. The charedi view my ideology as amoral.